only by faith in Christ, which results in obedience from the heart" - John MacArthur
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,
but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)
by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Peter 3:21)
OBSERVER 1
What scriptures supports this Statement?
RIVERFORUM
This man is flat wrong and a false teacher that denies the scriptures which literally say the exact opposite. refer to these for the truth:
Mark 16:16; Colossians 2:9-13; 1 Peter 3:20-22; Acts 2:37; John 3:5; Acts 10, Acts 19…many more
OBSERVER 2
how exactly is this false? Salvation comes by faith and faith alone. Christianity is not a workspace religion. You can’t do anything to earn your way into heaven.
RIVERFORUM
If you open your Bible and truly read all the scriptures I provided, they already hold the answer to your questions.
For the sake of clarity, Water Baptism is not a “work” or something one does to merit heaven. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Just as the Jew was circumcised to be part of God’s Covenant, likewise Christians are baptised.
Colossians 2:8-15 (cited above) lays this all out quite plainly. It explains how Baptism in Jesus Name IS an expression of Faith. Even MacArthur above contradicts himself when he says that faith produces obedience. We must OBEY the gospel! (Romans 10:16, 2 Thess 1:8, 1 Pet 4:17)
God actually remits our sins in baptism (Acts 2:37) upon our confession of faith. This is where the transaction takes place - by faith and by the operation of God. This is speaking only of water baptism.
Holy Spirit baptism is another subject, yet inextricable from the conversion experience as well. In this act God indwells or fills the believer.
WHAT IS A "WORK"?
The best way to square up James 2:14-26 and Romans 10:9-13 is really to understand better what we mean when we say something is a “work”.
A “work” does not mean “any action whatsoever”. A “work” is something that is done specifically to produce merit or favor honor, worthiness, prestige, or achievement - in this case to earn Salvation.
If baptism is a “work” then so must be confession! For confession is something you DO as an expression of faith, is it not?
Consider that James also said “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26). He is saying that it's not enough to internally agree or believe but we must MANIFEST that faith for it to be actuated.
If one really carefully reads Romans 10, then does the same with James 2 one might be a bit confused UNTIL one reads Colossians 2 which squares it all up neatly.
This is why I cite Colossians 2 because it does the summary work of harmonizing Romans 10 and James 2. One has to take the Bible as a whole in harmony.
Again, Baptisms and confessions - these things are not “works” in the sense that is being conflated upon them by modern Christians who cling to misunderstanding.
- Being baptized is an ACT of confession!
- Receiving his Spirit is to receive the gift of the deposit of God's spirit in us.
- Neither of these speak to the merit of the candidate.
LET'S JUST BE REALLY CLEAR ABOUT THE "ROMAN ROAD"
Let's start by reading Romans 10:8-13.
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Typically associated is this passage in Ephesians 2:8-10
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
LET'S INVESTIGATE
First of all. Who is the author of both Romans, Ephesians, and Colossians? The Apostle Paul right? So let us not forget that the same Paul who did the works of evangelism in Acts 19 also wrote about them in the epistles to Rome, Ephesus, Colosse, etc. Same author.
So it is PAUL who goes to Ephesus in Acts 19:1-7. And it is PAUL yet again who writes to them to reflect on this experience in Ephesians 1:12-14 which expounds on their conversion by saying:
"(v 13) In whom (Jesus) you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also that after you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (v14) which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchase possession…” (Ephesians 1:12-14)
The writing in Ephesians references heavily the experience of Acts 19. When Paul says in Ephesians 1:13 that they were "sealed with that holy spirit of promise", he is not speaking of some nebulous series of events over time. He is referring specifically to when HE went to Ephesus and preached Jesus to them in Acts 19 and they were filled with the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1 is not a blanket statement. It is a specific reference to a documented event!
Paul explains herein that the baptism of the Holy Spirit the Ephesian believers received in Acts 19:6 was in fact God making a deposit of His spirit in them. It is described by Paul in financial terms as being like “earnest” money - a good faith deposit that he will come back and claim what he has bought.
One should not read Ephesians 2:8-9 which says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." and NEGLECT the chapter preceding cited above (Eph 1:12-14) which describes the very acts of faith themselves which they experienced!
For, receiving the holy spirit is a GIFT from GOD received through the operation of FAITH. None of these transactions between God and the believer during baptism(s) constitute(s) a "work" or an act of merit.
BY THE SAME TOKEN
One should not read Romans 10:8-13, also written by PAUL and neglect the rest of his letter. Specifically not what he says 4 chapters prior in Chapter 6 regarding baptism! (Romans 6:3-9)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Notably, when it came time to preach conversion to the Ephesians in Acts 19, Paul's message aligned 100% with Peter's exhortation in Acts 2. His later expositions in Romans, Colossians, Ephesians provide a deeper cumulative theology about the practice.
A BIT ABOUT PETER
Peter laid out very plainly the conversion process in Acts 2:37-39 and this was followed by the apostles (like Paul) and their immediate followers:
- Believe in Jesus Christ
- Repent of your sins,
- Be water baptized in Jesus Name for the remission of your sins
- Seek and Receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit
- Abide in Him (v 46)
This means you and I today!
POST SCRIPT CHALLENGE
The thief on the cross was not baptized and yet Jesus told him he’d be with Him that day in paradise. So I don’t agree that it’s “believe and be baptized “ but instead “believe and repent “.
But even so, the ability to repent and even believe are a work of the Holy Spirit, not man. Our being saved by God is not a dual effort between us and God. It is completely monorgistic. It’s Gods grace alone that saves. And that was decided in infinity past. Thus it is by grace alone.
RIVERFORUM
The thief on the cross died before Jesus died was resurrected and ascended. He was still under Jewish law. Not the New Covenant. As the giver of the law, Jesus had the authority to forgive him just as he did the paralytic man. Jesus himself said “Believe and is baptized” Mark 16:16. Peter said it again Acts 2:37, Paul practiced it in Acts 19 and confirmed the teaching in Romans 6 and Colossians 2. Peter reaffirms it in 1 Peter 3.
Your argument is not with me, it is with the scripture itself. It is not “believe and repent” alone. What does Peter , who was given the keys to the kingdom, say to believers asking “what shall we do? His answer: “Repent and be baptised everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” This is how we are to apply our faith in conversion to Christ.
God’s grace does not save the unrepentant or the one who denies christ or even one who blasphemes the holy spirit (Matthew 12:22-32).
God is not willing for anyone to perish but for all to have eternal life, correct? Well, not all do! Even at the white throne judgment we see Jesus separating sheep and goats. Also Hebrews 6:6 describes backsliders who cannot be restored to grace.
Yes grace alone saves, but grace is resistible! And THIS is decided in infinity past. Else Satan would not exist. Satan abandoned his first estate and resisted the grace of God and so lost his ability to come before God. In fact, he would still muscle his way into heaven to accuse (Book of Job) until Michael overcame him by the power of the blood of Jesus and was able to keep him out of heaven for good. (Rev 12:11)
We also have examples of Cain, Judas Iscariot as well. These walked with God and knew God and believed God yet did not see heaven because they did what they thought was right in their own eyes (offering vegetables, turning in Jesus) vs, what God asked of them. Paul was told by Jesus "it is hard to kick agains the goads" (Acts 26:14) exposing that he was resisting Jesus. In fact many contemporaries of Jesus looked him square in the face and denied him!
I submit that, unlike the Apostle Paul who consented to the death of Stephen and later repented, John Calvin himself did not see heaven for the evidence of him dying unrepentant of the murder of Michael Servetus which he caused.
Peter went on to say “Save yourselves from this untoward generation”. We most definitely have a role in our own salvation - and that is to choose to love and serve him as our Lord and Saviour. We are exhorted by Paul to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. (Phillipians 2:12-13)
Again try not to get caught up in the trap of “what seems right to me is…” or even “what I believe is…”. Rather, what does the Bible itself say and then we need to align to it, not twist the Word to make it say what we want it to or what aligns with our doctrines, however inconvenient.
May the Bible itself persuade us of its OWN message.
POST POST SCRIPT COUNTERPOINT
OK. I think I found the reason for our disagreement here. You say that Grace is resistible. I believe that Grace is irresistible. I believe that when God gives his grace to us, that is the giving of the holy spirit that changes our hearts so that we can’t help but seek Jesus.
RIVERFORUM
I don't simply "say" grace is resistible. I provide scriptural examples which demonstrate that this is what the Bible teaches. These aren't MY ideas. I may WISH it was the way you say it is, for more people might be saved. Yet it is not. The way is narrow and the path is straight.
I only share what the Bible itself teaches. If you disagree, it is not with me. It is with the Word. And that you must reconcile with God, not with me. For if you believe another doctrine or teaching that is different than what Jesus and his Apostles taught us, then you are effectively saying that the Bible really isn't our standard as Paul says it is in 2 Timothy 3:16. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
What scriptures do you have that support your position that grace irresistible? And if it is, are we not simply mindless robots then drawn like unwitting moths to his flame? How does that demonstrate the love of GOD if he controls us with his love? That's tyranny!
Again, we need to align our beliefs to what the Bible teaches, not what seems right to us.
Please provide scripture which supports your position. I have shown examples to the contrary. I do agree that the Bible teaches that God pursues those who turn to him and draws them unto Him. And the sheep who hear his voice do follow. BUT that is the exception. The norm is that people resist that call. Again like Saul kicking against the goads.
Paul was resisted by Alexander the coppersmith as well and at one point the entire city of Ephesus wanted to kill him for his preaching on Jesus that challenged their idolatry. If these weren’t resisting God’s grace, what then were they doing!?
The great irony is that most of those who cling to the doctrine of irresistible grace of God’s Spirit are also those who deny the baptism of the Holy Ghost and spiritual gifts. So, while they claim to follow irresistible grace they themselves have resisted grace by putting the stops on what they will allow or accept from God’s spirit proving yet again that cessationism quenches the Spirit as it denies God’s real and present activity in our lives.