A friend (Catholic 2) posted the following superstition on their social media wall:
"Say unceasingly the chaplet that I have taught you. Whoever will recite it will receive great mercy at the hour of death. Priests will recommend it to sinners at their last hope of salvations. Even if there were a sinner most hardened, if he were to recite this chaplet only once, he would receive grace from My infinite mercy...At the hour of their death, I defend as My own glory every soul that will say this chaplet; or, when others say it for a dying person, the indulgence is the same."--Jesus to St. Faustina~
COMMENTARY AS FOLLOWS:
Catholic Person 1
The most offensive blood thirsty nonsense I've read in a long time is the completely pagan belief in the blood sacrifice and vicarious atonement … was NEVER a part of Jesus sacred teachings about God's Love …but was added in later by the Greeks and others who believed in blood sacrifice (Mithrites) for redemption…even Abraham the great …was told by God ….NOT to sacrifice his son …the message to the Jews ever after …GOD does not ever accept or ask for human sacrifice. ….
Catholic Person 2
1. And all the sacrifices mentioned in the Bible???
2. Christ's Passion and death were His mission and way of teaching us of the Love, mercy and forgiveness, we'll find, when we turn to God.
3. Love God and Love others were Christ's great commandments.
4. Or perhaps you dismiss Christ's presence in the Holy Eucharist?! A symbolic, yet real way to invite God to 'live' within you.
To be considerate:
Your feedback suggests a strong emotional reaction... Perhaps this isn't the best venue for an exchange of ideas?
2. Christ's Passion and death were His mission and way of teaching us of the Love, mercy and forgiveness, we'll find, when we turn to God.
3. Love God and Love others were Christ's great commandments.
4. Or perhaps you dismiss Christ's presence in the Holy Eucharist?! A symbolic, yet real way to invite God to 'live' within you.
To be considerate:
Your feedback suggests a strong emotional reaction... Perhaps this isn't the best venue for an exchange of ideas?
RIVERFORUM
To Catholic Person 1- in the case of Abraham, God did provide a blood sacrifice in the place of Isaac. The concept of the Atonement is woven all throughout the Bible from Genesis on. The book of Hebrews explains perfectly how Christ presents himself eternally as the atonement. Read Hebrews 9 and 10.
To Catholic Person 2 Of note, the prayer beads are actually an eastern and later Hindu tradition. We are not supposed to pray to God with vain repetition (Matt 6:7) which is a pagan practice.
Regarding that prayer you posted - it is actually a misrepresentation of Christian theology. We do not offer the blood, body and soul, etc of Christ to the Father. He offered himself once for us (Hebrews 9:14) and that is eternally sufficient. To continually offer atonement (symbolically, since we are not literally killing Christ) is an absurdity in the light of the Word.
Regarding the Hail Mary - Jesus corrects those who would venerate Mary in Luke 27-29 citing that he agreed Mary was blessed, but that we should focus on following the Word of God instead.
It also deals here with signs and visions. Remember that the serpent comes with "hath god said?". Subtly twisting meanings is the great error of Catholicism. My final thought on this prayer is this:
To Catholic Person 2 Of note, the prayer beads are actually an eastern and later Hindu tradition. We are not supposed to pray to God with vain repetition (Matt 6:7) which is a pagan practice.
Regarding that prayer you posted - it is actually a misrepresentation of Christian theology. We do not offer the blood, body and soul, etc of Christ to the Father. He offered himself once for us (Hebrews 9:14) and that is eternally sufficient. To continually offer atonement (symbolically, since we are not literally killing Christ) is an absurdity in the light of the Word.
Regarding the Hail Mary - Jesus corrects those who would venerate Mary in Luke 27-29 citing that he agreed Mary was blessed, but that we should focus on following the Word of God instead.
It also deals here with signs and visions. Remember that the serpent comes with "hath god said?". Subtly twisting meanings is the great error of Catholicism. My final thought on this prayer is this:
Galatians 1:6-126 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Catholic Person 1
I love all the usual threats .. "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed " …. and so forth … Jesus never cursed anyone despite what the gospel revisionist wrote. I not only went to Catholic schools but attended seminary as well … So I know of all the threats issued that you quote.
IF you really believe the whole of the New Testament or Old for that matter to be the ABSOLUTE word of God… There can be no discussion with you ,no reasoning or presenting the real truth to you.
If Jesus blood has redeemed you then why do you still sin and have to go confess?
If Jesus offered himself up as a blood sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind, and he is God, as you believe, then God committed suicide!
Ridiculous you fundamentalists are. The word of God according to you or else we are accursed?
When you have the love of God in your soul received through His holy spirit …. which I do, the truth is self evident. God is Love!
If Jesus blood has redeemed you then why do you still sin and have to go confess?
If Jesus offered himself up as a blood sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind, and he is God, as you believe, then God committed suicide!
Ridiculous you fundamentalists are. The word of God according to you or else we are accursed?
When you have the love of God in your soul received through His holy spirit …. which I do, the truth is self evident. God is Love!
Catholic Person 2
To Catholic Person 1What threats? ... and I don't remember Christ nailing himself to the Cross. Come on dude.
I'm trying to have a conversation and exchange real ideas. And name calling? Fundamentalists? Buzz kill. And who said accursed? Asking for clarification rather than assuming/jumping to conclusions would help you honor your profession.
After all, are you not supposed to be a teacher? I feel troubled with the tenor of your words. All this because I offered a prayer. Hmmm...
I'm trying to have a conversation and exchange real ideas. And name calling? Fundamentalists? Buzz kill. And who said accursed? Asking for clarification rather than assuming/jumping to conclusions would help you honor your profession.
After all, are you not supposed to be a teacher? I feel troubled with the tenor of your words. All this because I offered a prayer. Hmmm...
RIVERFORUM to Catholic Person 1
1 John 2:1-2.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
To be a Christian is to be consistent with the Word of God. The Word of God is absolute. Men and institutions however are not. And the Catholics started getting it wrong around 325 AD with the council of Nicea. The point that Paul was making to the church in Galatia above was that false teachings about Christ would arise and would lead people from the truth that the apostles were entrusted with and given the authority to teach. In Revelation we see an example of this in the Nicolaitan church.
My point in all of this is that tradition perverts the word of God and the primitive form of Christianity into nonsense. Jesus spoke of this in Matthew 15:6 - of the dangers of tradition nullifying the word of God making it impotent.
Regarding the Greeks: The oldest and most authoritative codices are in Greek. The Latin Septuagint based on these. The interpolation of revisionism is typically a criticism reserved for the Catholic Church oddly enough. A prime example being the Johannine Comma of 1 John 5:7 which appears in the King James and I believe St Joseph's but not in the NIV as it was found to be a later addition brought in from the Septuagint - Latin.
Another problem in Europe was the issue of feminine articles and nouns where Greek was neuter - this leading to all sorts of Marian traditions - such as the doctrine of the comediatrix deriving from the curse in Genesis.
Again - my point is that for one to be a true Christian one must align to the text or else admit one's deviation from it. The idea that reciting a prayer by wrote imputes grace is to cheapen the cross and put salvation into the hands of undeserving writers.
Catholic 1
maybe trying praying with sincere faith and earnest aspiration to receive God's Love though the workings of His holy spirit instead of intellectualizing and see the difference between mental beliefs and being transformed by the Love of God.
RIVERFORUM
I'm a believing spirit-filled Christian. Acts 2:37-39. So I am coming from a place of love and concern that fellow believers in Christ don't listen to poppycock. In fact I'm actually disambiguating the pseudo intellectualism of Catholicism. And I'm typically not this vocal. But when I see stuff this absurd I can't resist.
Catholic 2
What is so profound to me, (shocking really) are these reactions to what I've shared: a Divine Mercy prayer.
You two are not atheists, but faithful believers. And yet the three of us are arguing over what? Divine Mercy? A prayer? The problems that you each have with Catholicism? Or is it Syntax? Semantics? Or belief? I really don't know.
Calling Catholicism pseudo-intellectualism, doesn't resonate with me. And I really don't know WHAT you're talking about.
Most of all, I'm just perplexed at what bothers you both about this Divine Mercy prayer?
None of us are religious scholars, though Catholic 2 is a religious authority I respect. The best I can do is to speak from my experience of faith, having witnessed acts of God: miracles, signs and wonders.
But (Riverforum) if you're coming from a place of love and concern, your word choices sure don't reflect that; phrases and judgments like 'poppycock' and 'stuff this absurd', would say otherwise.
You make long arguments, but then muddy them with your ill characterizations. So now I must question how much you really care about the sharing of ideas when you write with such outrage.
I'd rebuke you, but I'm not a spiritual advisor. As a friend, I'd ask that you share your views and opinions with more respect, so as to engender the same, rather than a dialogue that becomes nasty and seemingly fruitless.
But it really is disheartening to see, and saddens me that you've taking this tone of righteous indignation and judgment.
I've learned a lot by keeping an open mind, being respectful, and civil while I profess my faith, which, as you know, I've experienced. Being led to learn and find Christ in the world.
It's my belief that only through compassionate interactions, speaking and acting with respect for one another, (& living the golden rule, and Christ's great Commandments) will we be able to grow together within the body of Christ, of which all faithful believers, and both of you, are apart.
I close with this: I believe in Divine Mercy (The opposite being, Divine Justice), and I believe that praying for Divine Mercy is, and has been for me, a really and truly wonderful experience.
You two are not atheists, but faithful believers. And yet the three of us are arguing over what? Divine Mercy? A prayer? The problems that you each have with Catholicism? Or is it Syntax? Semantics? Or belief? I really don't know.
Calling Catholicism pseudo-intellectualism, doesn't resonate with me. And I really don't know WHAT you're talking about.
Most of all, I'm just perplexed at what bothers you both about this Divine Mercy prayer?
None of us are religious scholars, though Catholic 2 is a religious authority I respect. The best I can do is to speak from my experience of faith, having witnessed acts of God: miracles, signs and wonders.
But (Riverforum) if you're coming from a place of love and concern, your word choices sure don't reflect that; phrases and judgments like 'poppycock' and 'stuff this absurd', would say otherwise.
You make long arguments, but then muddy them with your ill characterizations. So now I must question how much you really care about the sharing of ideas when you write with such outrage.
I'd rebuke you, but I'm not a spiritual advisor. As a friend, I'd ask that you share your views and opinions with more respect, so as to engender the same, rather than a dialogue that becomes nasty and seemingly fruitless.
But it really is disheartening to see, and saddens me that you've taking this tone of righteous indignation and judgment.
I've learned a lot by keeping an open mind, being respectful, and civil while I profess my faith, which, as you know, I've experienced. Being led to learn and find Christ in the world.
It's my belief that only through compassionate interactions, speaking and acting with respect for one another, (& living the golden rule, and Christ's great Commandments) will we be able to grow together within the body of Christ, of which all faithful believers, and both of you, are apart.
I close with this: I believe in Divine Mercy (The opposite being, Divine Justice), and I believe that praying for Divine Mercy is, and has been for me, a really and truly wonderful experience.
Politbanter
Nothing really bothers me about it (the prayer) at all on a personal or emotional level. I'm just approaching it rationally as refuting false doctrine and teaching. People can do and believe whatever they like. I have no outrage at all. Whatsoever. I do keep an open mind and heart which goes out to folks led astray by false teaching.
I too believe in God's mercy and if you feel that I've presented some points in a way that offends you, I'm sorry. Sometimes being as direct as possible is the best way to inform someone they care about that there is danger present. A good example might be in the case of a house fire behind a closed door. If one observer knows the fire is there and the other does not, would it not be appropriate for the one who knows to alert his friend as he attempts to open the door? All I'm trying to do here is show you how hot the doorknob is. The rest is up to you.
I simply offered citations of scripture that contradicted the prayer. My only motive is to encourage you to free thought unshackled by tradition and superstition. If you aren't interested I don't have to share. No worries here.
Catholic 2
Apology accepted.
But how can you KNOW where I'm at in my spiritual life! Saying the handle is hot? That seems overly presumptuous and judgmental. It's precisely the issue I had/have with the Pentecostal Church.
I judge myself daily and go to the throne, to seek forgiveness for my sins. Yet for the Pentecostal Church, they judge other people without the love and compassion Christ's so known for.
We cannot say if one is destined for hell's fire. As such, I think it's best, to refrain from any judgment, and I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. In fact, I like the idea, that everyone is more important than I am. I am but a humble servant of Christ, seeking to please God, and acting always with love.
Of course I'm not perfect, which is why I pray for Divine Mercy, in hopes that on the day of my judgment, Christ will mediate the Divine Justice.
This is what Divine Mercy and that prayer seeks to promote. Like Faith being known by works, we know at anytime, anyone can be redeemed.
And speaking of false doctrine, that's why I keep an open mind, for I believe in the Proverb, 'to lean not on my own understanding.' As well, 'do you seek and fine, if you search with all your heart.'
Right now, the Catholic Church reflects best the faith experiences that I've had. I don't agree with all of the dogma and doctrine (look at the changes that Pope Francis has been making thankfully) so, I return to proverbs, 'to lean not on my own understanding.'
We are all a part of the body of Christ! Having discussions like this, is balm to my soul, as long as they're civil and thoughtful and shared with love.
Faith is quite mysterious. And one's relationship with God, is unique. How we share our religious and spiritual experiences, participating in community and communion, all help us to grow in the body of Christ, and be closer to Christ. After all, that is one of the goals of being a Christian: to know Christ, and love God and the Holy Spirit, while hoping to be received in heaven.
I don't know about you, but I never believe that my place is secure. Even though my works reflect my face, at least I hope they do, I still fall short of perfection, and how can I know for sure that I'm worthy of the lofty Heaven!?
Therefore, I continually strive to grow spiritually. And of course my individual walk with God, is different than either of yours. However, as we are Christian, a part of the body of Christ, we can speak of our faith, and speak of our love for God, and speak about spiritual enlightenment and epiphany.
This is one reason I shared the Divine Mercy prayer, because it's meaningful to me. And I hope it might be meaningful to other Christians. My experience in saying the prayer, hasn't been one of regurgitation of a set of sentences, it's been an amazingly rich spiritual experience empathizing and sympathizing with the passion of Christ, and trying to wrap my mind around the immensity of God's love, and Divine Mercy.
But how can you KNOW where I'm at in my spiritual life! Saying the handle is hot? That seems overly presumptuous and judgmental. It's precisely the issue I had/have with the Pentecostal Church.
I judge myself daily and go to the throne, to seek forgiveness for my sins. Yet for the Pentecostal Church, they judge other people without the love and compassion Christ's so known for.
We cannot say if one is destined for hell's fire. As such, I think it's best, to refrain from any judgment, and I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. In fact, I like the idea, that everyone is more important than I am. I am but a humble servant of Christ, seeking to please God, and acting always with love.
Of course I'm not perfect, which is why I pray for Divine Mercy, in hopes that on the day of my judgment, Christ will mediate the Divine Justice.
This is what Divine Mercy and that prayer seeks to promote. Like Faith being known by works, we know at anytime, anyone can be redeemed.
And speaking of false doctrine, that's why I keep an open mind, for I believe in the Proverb, 'to lean not on my own understanding.' As well, 'do you seek and fine, if you search with all your heart.'
Right now, the Catholic Church reflects best the faith experiences that I've had. I don't agree with all of the dogma and doctrine (look at the changes that Pope Francis has been making thankfully) so, I return to proverbs, 'to lean not on my own understanding.'
We are all a part of the body of Christ! Having discussions like this, is balm to my soul, as long as they're civil and thoughtful and shared with love.
Faith is quite mysterious. And one's relationship with God, is unique. How we share our religious and spiritual experiences, participating in community and communion, all help us to grow in the body of Christ, and be closer to Christ. After all, that is one of the goals of being a Christian: to know Christ, and love God and the Holy Spirit, while hoping to be received in heaven.
I don't know about you, but I never believe that my place is secure. Even though my works reflect my face, at least I hope they do, I still fall short of perfection, and how can I know for sure that I'm worthy of the lofty Heaven!?
Therefore, I continually strive to grow spiritually. And of course my individual walk with God, is different than either of yours. However, as we are Christian, a part of the body of Christ, we can speak of our faith, and speak of our love for God, and speak about spiritual enlightenment and epiphany.
This is one reason I shared the Divine Mercy prayer, because it's meaningful to me. And I hope it might be meaningful to other Christians. My experience in saying the prayer, hasn't been one of regurgitation of a set of sentences, it's been an amazingly rich spiritual experience empathizing and sympathizing with the passion of Christ, and trying to wrap my mind around the immensity of God's love, and Divine Mercy.
RIVERFORUM
My commentary is not about where you are at personally. I respect everyone's journey. I'm purely talking about church teachings. And I had/have the same issues with (other churches). I totally agree regarding compassion.
The "burning room" was perhaps a bad example as I wasn't implying hellfire. I think you are right to seek compassion, mercy, peace, humility. Sometimes people confuse when I am being direct about theology to mean I am being critical of them personally - I'm not.
I'm more bewildered actually about how a good and sincere man like yourself can align himself with an organization with such bloody and horrible sinful history of intolerance, brutality, abuse, and control. I think this is where the disconnect is for me in both knowing you and knowing the evil of that church - which is hard to reconcile. This is why I am so direct.
The doctrine and practice of that church is the heat of the door handle. And the result is the obfuscation of Grace by way of layered complexities of meaningless traditions, indulgences, rites, liturgies, and mysteries. All to perpetuate a system of belief that is so far removed from what Jesus and His apostles taught us that it is scary.
That being said, I totally get and respect what you are seeking and sharing and why. I'm just tackling the theology here. Not your journey, experience, walk, or heart. I truly think your heart is in the right place and is motivated by love and compassion.
That being said, I totally get and respect what you are seeking and sharing and why. I'm just tackling the theology here. Not your journey, experience, walk, or heart. I truly think your heart is in the right place and is motivated by love and compassion.
Catholic 2
Yeah I understand about the history of the Catholic Church, and in general the history of humans to act with such malice in the name of God.
That being said, it's a reason why we're so grateful that Christ came to earth, precisely because human beings are so imperfect and sinful.
The Catholic Church shares a sacramental experience that I found to be very worthwhile and profound. That's a present experience, and not a historical one. And of course there are things as I mentioned, that I disagree with, but that doesn't stop me from the way I worship God, and where I worship God.
I think it's a fundamental part of being a Christian, that people find communities to worship at, that feel good to them and that nourish them.
Receiving spiritual nourishment is extremely important to one's faith experience in my opinion. The divine mercy prayer, among others, is one way in which I have experienced a movement of the Spirit.
After all, isn't that what we most long for, to come to know the Holy Spirit?!
That being said, it's a reason why we're so grateful that Christ came to earth, precisely because human beings are so imperfect and sinful.
The Catholic Church shares a sacramental experience that I found to be very worthwhile and profound. That's a present experience, and not a historical one. And of course there are things as I mentioned, that I disagree with, but that doesn't stop me from the way I worship God, and where I worship God.
I think it's a fundamental part of being a Christian, that people find communities to worship at, that feel good to them and that nourish them.
Receiving spiritual nourishment is extremely important to one's faith experience in my opinion. The divine mercy prayer, among others, is one way in which I have experienced a movement of the Spirit.
After all, isn't that what we most long for, to come to know the Holy Spirit?!
RIVERFORUM
To me, finding beauty in the Catholic Sacraments is like finding beauty in the swastika as an ancient Sanskrit symbol despite Hitler. Doesn't make sense.
Catholic 2
Interesting Comparison.
RIVERFORUM
What's even more interesting is that neither of you engaged with the scriptures which i presented that dislodge the theology of this prayer. Matthew 6:7, Hebrews 9:14, Luke 11:27-29, 1 John 2:1-2.
Only Gal 1:6-12 was addressed and it was really the least of my points - not to emphasis the curse, but to emphasize the fact that both men and angels have the capacity to preach false gospels and doctrine. These manifestations (in this case to Faustina) with unscriptural messages are simply not of God.
1 John 4:1 says we are to "try the spirits" to see whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. How do we try them? By the Word.
We can know that they are not of God because the messages are contrary to God's word and the teaching of the Apostles - which is authoritative for the Christian.
Christ told us this would happen:
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect". Matthew 24:24
Regarding scholarship - we are all commanded to be scholars of the Word of God. There is no NT biblical office of Scholar. Paul exhorted Timothy to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2:15
God used an Ass to speak to Balaam, and poor fishermen to speak to us. I think you and I both have more qualification than these to understand the Word.
There are no priests in the Christian Church. We are all priests and ministers of Christ (1 Peter 2:9).
We have one mediator between God and man and that is Christ Jesus. (1 Tim 2:5)
My closing thoughts are to urge you not to be deceived by the semblance of truth, thereby exchanging the real thing for a tradition of distorted liturgy and practice. These things, these peculiar teachings, are precisely what led that Church into the evil it was.
In Revelation 17, John prophesied of the false church having its seat in Rome - the city of seven hills. Her priests are arrayed in scarlet and purple, is extraordinarily wealthy and ornate, and holds a chalice - the symbol of the eucharist (see image). He noted that this false church had headship over the great kings of the earth - a fine description of Europe until the Age of Napoleon. The most important though is that he described her as drunk with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Jesus. Catholicism has killed and tortured so many Christian saints who have stood for Christ and renounced their tradition - it is on the scale of genocide.
If I could drag your soul, kicking and screaming, away from these false teachers I would.
And THAT is the love of a brother.
RIVERFORUM
What's even more interesting is that neither of you engaged with the scriptures which i presented that dislodge the theology of this prayer. Matthew 6:7, Hebrews 9:14, Luke 11:27-29, 1 John 2:1-2.
Only Gal 1:6-12 was addressed and it was really the least of my points - not to emphasis the curse, but to emphasize the fact that both men and angels have the capacity to preach false gospels and doctrine. These manifestations (in this case to Faustina) with unscriptural messages are simply not of God.
1 John 4:1 says we are to "try the spirits" to see whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. How do we try them? By the Word.
We can know that they are not of God because the messages are contrary to God's word and the teaching of the Apostles - which is authoritative for the Christian.
Christ told us this would happen:
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect". Matthew 24:24
Regarding scholarship - we are all commanded to be scholars of the Word of God. There is no NT biblical office of Scholar. Paul exhorted Timothy to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2:15
God used an Ass to speak to Balaam, and poor fishermen to speak to us. I think you and I both have more qualification than these to understand the Word.
There are no priests in the Christian Church. We are all priests and ministers of Christ (1 Peter 2:9).
We have one mediator between God and man and that is Christ Jesus. (1 Tim 2:5)
My closing thoughts are to urge you not to be deceived by the semblance of truth, thereby exchanging the real thing for a tradition of distorted liturgy and practice. These things, these peculiar teachings, are precisely what led that Church into the evil it was.
In Revelation 17, John prophesied of the false church having its seat in Rome - the city of seven hills. Her priests are arrayed in scarlet and purple, is extraordinarily wealthy and ornate, and holds a chalice - the symbol of the eucharist (see image). He noted that this false church had headship over the great kings of the earth - a fine description of Europe until the Age of Napoleon. The most important though is that he described her as drunk with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Jesus. Catholicism has killed and tortured so many Christian saints who have stood for Christ and renounced their tradition - it is on the scale of genocide.
If I could drag your soul, kicking and screaming, away from these false teachers I would.
And THAT is the love of a brother.