Can Women be Pastors? Vol 1.

 

PROPONENTS IN FAVOR OF THE POSTER

The Bible is plain as day stating for women to NOT be in authority over men in the church. Those of you speaking for women in leadership over men are just plain rebellious to the Holy Bible and should be embarrassed at your lack of understanding. Seriously. You need to re-read your Holy Bible and do some real studying!

Women have a role in spreading God’s message of Salvation, but not as an actual position,

pastors/priests. Jesus, Himself, would have picked a woman as one of His Apostles if it was something He wanted to have happen. Men have specific roles in the Church and women have a role also, both important, but not the same.

CHALLENGERS AGAINST THE POSTER

So say you. How can you forget about the women in the Bible who were appointed as leaders in the church -- in the Old AND New Testaments???? It's alright for you to have your "preference" of a man over a woman, but don't try and make your preference a matter of scripture, because it isn't!

I have a female pastor and she and those who serve with her absolutely lead us into the glorious Presence of God by the Holy Spirit every time we meet together!!! You just have no idea!!! And she is a great teacher of His Word!!! The people are growing and maturing and coming into the stature and fullness of the Lord Jesus Christ just as His Word call us to do! Her personal relationship with Jesus is very evident and not “religious”! I am SO BLESSED he led me to this particular fellowship group where He is given the highest honor and given the highest worship! He is pleased with it!! Glory to His Name!!

Eve came from Adam's Rib for a reason to be his equal not under him nor over him , and who wrote your Bibles or all good books for that matter , they were written by man , so of course women would have a limited role but God knew better that is why Mary birthed Jesus and all the other prophets were birthed by women not man

What about Deborah in the Old Testament? I think these verses are saying when women tell the men what to do (like wives telling the husbands) women speaking up spreading gossip and slander when they should be keeping quiet. I think there are several verses in the Bible such as in Judges where women were leaders . (Read the context I f what it was saying ) now if you are getting false doctrine or not getting transformed in a Godly way then yes you are being led wrong

Could it be that Jesus didn't pick a woman as a Disciple because they traveled together and that might have presented a problem to have a woman?? Your explanation does not hold water according to scripture. Men and women CAN operate in the same roles! And it's important that we understand that because the Word not only says they CAN, it says they DID!

RIVERFORUM

This topic is very challenging and many get emotionally charged about this sensitive issue. For those reasons, I am going to take this topic on slowly and deal with it in a couple of posts in serial. 

This first post will try and get to the bottom of what Paul is saying to the Corinthian church about this topic in 1 Corinthians 14.

To begin with let's set the stage for when this letter was written and try to get some contextual understanding. In 1st century Judaism, women were not allowed into it to worship with the men but had to stay in the court of women at the temple or outside the synagogue. They listened in to the rabbis but learned from their husbands at home.

After Jesus was crucified, the Bible teaches us that the the veil surrounding the Holiest of Holies (where high priest would commune with God before the Ark of the Covenant) was rent (torn) in twain (two) at the crucifixion, signifying to all people that the way to God was now open to all men and women alike, as demonstrated by Paul's letter to the Galatians 3:28 which states "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." The men in leadership in Corinth wanted to preserve that tradition of the women being silent.

The big challenge in the new church at Corinth was that women were now allowed into the congregation and the church of Corinth was having problems keeping order in their services. (1 Cor. 14:40) They therefore came up with the rule cited by Paul in chapter 14 verses 34-35 to manage the problem along the lines of how they handled it in the temple and synagogues.

Therefore, Chapter 14:33-38 can be read in two ways:

1) That Paul is speaking literally on principle saying women should be silent as suggested in the provocative meme posted above, or

2) We can realize that verses 34-35 are a rhetorical quote, to which Paul is responding with sarcasm and admonition in verse 36. "What? Did the Word of God originate with you!?"

That is to say he finds that the unique Corinthian teaching of verses 34 and 35 that he is quoting, both outlandish and arrogant, telling them to stop teaching that on Paul's authority. verse 39 he mentions "sisters" signifying that he does mean to allow women the space to prophesy in church, and thereby address the congregation.

This interpretation is called a QRD or Quotation-Refutation-Device

Verse 36 provides the clarity needed. Paul is mocking and undermining that teaching he quotes in 34-35 telling the leaders in Corinth in verse 36 basically "Who are you to make such a rule as though the Word of God only came to you (men) alone?!"

(As an aside for my cessationist friends, this passage also reminds us NOT to forbid speaking in tongues, simply that all means of address should be done in a fitting and orderly way as Paul laid out in the preceding verses.)

If verse 36 was not present, #1 would be correct. But verse 36 points us to #2.

Then again, 1 Timothy 2 does point us back to the principles found in interpretation #1 leaving verse 36 challenged.

1 Timothy 2

11 A woman (wife) should learn in quietness and full submission. 

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man (over her husband); she must be quiet. 

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 

14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 

15 But women (she) will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

To get to the bottom of it all we really need to look at the original greek manuscripts and see where or whether there is punctuation because the literal greek renders the passage either of two ways providing very different results for 1 Cor 14:34-35:

"hai gynaikes en tais ekklesias sigatosan ou gar epitrepitai autais lalein alla hypotassesthosan kathos kai o nomos legei..."

 "hai (the) gynaikes (women) en (in) tais ekklesias (the churches) sigatosan (let them be silent) ou (not) gar (for) epitrepitai (it is allowed) autais (to them) lalein (to speak) alla (but) hypostassesthosan (to be in submission) kathos (as) kai (and) o (the) nomos (law) legei (says)..."

EITHER A OR B IS CORRECT

A. "The women in the churches, let them be silent. For it is (not) allowed for them to speak but to be in submission..."

B. "The women in the churches let them not be silent for it is allowed for them to speak but to be in submission..."

Same words, moving the punctuation gives us one scenario where women can't speak at all and a second scenario where they can - but in both scenarios under the authority of men. verse 39 agrees with rendering B because Paul says that sisters can prophesy but done decently and in order.

Paul's common style is to make a thesis and then restate it after some explanatory content.

Syntax A is also grammatically awkward, and Syntax B is more in keeping with Paul's typical semantic patterns.

https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/1-corinthians-1434-35-marginal-comment-or-quotation-response-kirk/

I took some time to compare the source manuscripts Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus to see where that would lead me.

. 

Codex Sinaiticus                Codex Vaticanus

The texts read as follows:

SINAITICUS (4th century)

AI GYNAIKES EN TAIS EKKLASIAIS SIGATOSAN OU GAR EPITREPETAI AUTAIS LALEI ALLA HYPOTASSESTHOSAN KATHOS KAI O NOMOS LEGEI
EI DI TI MAHTHAIN EIN DE THELOUUSIN EN OIKO TOUS IDIOUS ANDROS EPEROTATOSAN AISCHRON GAR ESTIN GYNAIKI LALEIN EIN EKKLESIA

E APH HYMON O LOGOS TOU THEO EXELTHEN EI EIS HYMAS MONOS KATENTESEN

VATICANUS (4th Century, slightly older)

AI GYNAIKES EN TAIS EKKLASIAIS SIGATOSAN OU GAR EPITREPETAI AUTAIS LALEI EIN ALLA HYPOTASSESTHOSAN KATHOS KAI O NOMOS LEGEI
EI DI TI MATHAIN THELOUUSIN EN OIKO TOUS IDIOUS ANDRAS EPEROTATOSAN. 

AISCHRON GAR ESTIN GYNAIKI LALEIN EN EKKLESIA.

36) E APH HYMON O LOGOS TOU THEO EXELTHEN EI EIS HYMAS MONOUS KATENTESEN

Essentially both manuscripts come out the same.  There is no period in the Greek between "silent" (sigatosan) and "not"(ou) The way the work is written verse 34 and 35 are one stanza.  Sinaiticus has a line break after "Ekklesia" and Vaticanus has a period/full stop after "(h)eperotatosan" and "Ekklesia" - both formats serve to separate v 36 as a distinct thought from 34 and 35.

This link below is a well researched article that tends challenges my Quotation-Response Rhetorical Device theory.  The author has provided some solid research trying to show that QRD is not the rhetorical device in use here.  I am not yet inclined to agree with him, but the case is somewhat compelling.


https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/1-corinthians-1434-35-marginal-comment-or-quotation-response-kirk/

Next Article we will deal with gender roles, spiritual authority, church offices, and address the comments of the proponents and challengers above.