tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-167325412024-03-28T23:28:21.841-04:00River ForumRiver Forum is a commitment to study the Word of God and to examine the teaching and practices of the original Apostolic Church in contrast with modern faith traditions.
ANYONE who believes in Jesus Christ, accurately and according to scripture (John 7:38) and seeks with honesty to be forgiven for their sins (Acts 2:37-41), can in Jesus' name, be baptized in water and also in his Spirit (Col 2:12) becoming born again into the Kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5).
Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-74813036453013226992023-08-05T01:33:00.027-04:002023-08-05T05:15:44.191-04:00Does the Bible declare a Flat or Globe Earth?<h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiYCERW7Ko4Ax1jIRv1i4stvw2dowx_od-JLMAZPpF9e6lVBE2Iu6jd42v3yHpnVOe14BikHDLp1Sr8gYmmZrQSPZAhVWKDYJabpnRyz6JHbfCCYoipt78cYXDLfr3PPLtAkH-DunfbZvS5wPReKcdsxOi52BGO1CMfEDNTQySg2Rdyi-E4jC-k/s5994/fake%20earth.jpeg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="3371" data-original-width="5994" height="345" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiYCERW7Ko4Ax1jIRv1i4stvw2dowx_od-JLMAZPpF9e6lVBE2Iu6jd42v3yHpnVOe14BikHDLp1Sr8gYmmZrQSPZAhVWKDYJabpnRyz6JHbfCCYoipt78cYXDLfr3PPLtAkH-DunfbZvS5wPReKcdsxOi52BGO1CMfEDNTQySg2Rdyi-E4jC-k/w613-h345/fake%20earth.jpeg" width="613" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div></span></h2><h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"> Does the Bible declare a Flat or Globe Earth?</span></h2><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">This is is an interesting question. One that is on the minds of many as they are starting to face challenges to the conventional modern view of a globe earth by those who proclaim not only is the earth flat and shaped like a disc surrounded by an ice wall, but that the Bible itself affirms this notion. </span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">The first thing we must do to remain objective when evaluating claims is to begin the inquiry </span><span style="font-family: courier;">"<i>tabula rasa</i>" (</span><span style="font-family: courier;">from a blank slate) in order that we might examine the evidence more clearly. Because to conduct a scholarly inquiry into </span><i style="font-family: courier;">any </i><span style="font-family: courier;">matter</span><span style="font-family: courier;"> we must first do what is necessary to remove any sort of Confirmation Bias that we might bring to the inquiry. <br /><br />The <i>evidence</i> should be sufficient to lead us to the answers we seek. We should not begin with a position and then find ways to collate data that supports that position or we risk missing valid and constructive counterpoints, and further risk making errors of judgment based on a limited over-qualified, and biased perspective. </span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Therefore, we must not approach this question by saying that "The Earth IS such and such..." because the Bible or Science says "thus and such...". RATHER, WE MUST ASK THE BETTER QUESTION: </span></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">"What is the Earth? And what evidence is there to help us define it." </span></h3><div><span style="font-family: courier;">For this exercise I am not going to address ALL evidence from a material/scientific/physics standpoint, I am ONLY going to address the challenge presented to me by a friend who presented to me a list of scriptures as "proof-texts" for the </span><span style="font-family: courier;">Flat-Earth </span><span style="font-family: courier;">position. This exercise will first examine the list he provided and then will continue to examine the remainder of Scripture to determine if there are any other texts worth considering along the same subject line and why.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>CAVEAT:</b></span></h3><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;">It should be stated that the PURPOSE of the Bible is <b>NOT</b> to give mankind a clear, specific, and precise scientific view of the universe and all it contains. The Scriptures are silent and unspecific on <u>many</u> topics that are commonplace in modern knowledge. Nuclear Fission, Cell Anatomy, Quantum Physics, Genetics are only a few of these subjects. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;">And for other topics, Bible prophets may describe their visions allegorically to explain what they "see" such as in Revelation where the "image of the beast" is made to "speak". This could be interpreted as television, robotic androids, streaming internet video, and myriad other possibilities - none with absolute certainty.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;">The Bible does touch on describing certain aspects of Creation, but it is typically written in a manner that is adaptive in form so that it could be understood by the author's contemporaries. Jesus Himself had to use agrarian parables to teach lessons to common people who were largely illiterate. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;">Also certain other "scientific" topics in the Bible are not fully extrapolated for the modern scientific reader. Here are three strong examples:</span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>EXAMPLE 1 - Mark 5</b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><b><br /></b></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEitxq8V4BoUBrK_6LvRB6jPuVa5YmxlwKqq7eyZTyHxS1ynaivjmnLau2sfoaGzLT-Inlekh74ap5Pw8wnoc-KmnNIS8PHARHFCwCBMOvSbDorq8oTMbBbSJPIKt4CxVe-X9jLxivFTBlxXHsstFTksLixSNqP6bBfDheyN8m1siIfbHkjZ7FKm/s850/Screen%20Shot%202023-08-05%20at%207.42.13%20AM.png" style="clear: left; float: left; font-size: 24px; font-weight: 700; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="506" data-original-width="850" height="190" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEitxq8V4BoUBrK_6LvRB6jPuVa5YmxlwKqq7eyZTyHxS1ynaivjmnLau2sfoaGzLT-Inlekh74ap5Pw8wnoc-KmnNIS8PHARHFCwCBMOvSbDorq8oTMbBbSJPIKt4CxVe-X9jLxivFTBlxXHsstFTksLixSNqP6bBfDheyN8m1siIfbHkjZ7FKm/s320/Screen%20Shot%202023-08-05%20at%207.42.13%20AM.png" width="320" /></a><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;">The story of resurrection of Jairus' daughter in </span><a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%205&version=NIV" style="font-family: courier;">Mark 5:21-24, 35-43</a><span style="font-family: courier;">. </span></div><p><span style="font-family: courier;">When Jesus arrived on the scene, He obviously had way more knowledge than the onlookers about what was really going on with Jairus' Daughter. Jesus says <i>unequivocally</i> that "<b>the child is not dead</b>". </span><span style="font-family: courier;">He understood that she was in what we would refer to now as a "coma" or in a similar unresponsive state, perhaps after a prolonged fever. She may have had meningitis, but it's more likely that she was diabetic because in verse 42 after Jesus heals her, He gives everyone "strict orders to feed her". </span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">In any case, the onlookers</span><span style="font-family: courier;"> certainly </span><span style="font-family: courier;">did not understand blood sugar and diabetic comas. Neither would t</span><span style="font-family: courier;">hey have known how to mitigate prolonged fever, nor to check for a pulse. The endocrine and cardiovascular systems were not understood by medicine at that time in history. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><h4 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>EXAMPLE 2 - 1 Timothy </b></span></h4><div><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjcrdks9hhSD1HYPXNhMXN0TYrw5GafeOt1uym9HmQPnHaH3HMH0kR1xwd_P4a3agC3_lXupQgsS7AT2u3-9597N1pPUToN0a91XWLmU7xz3Bha2RgSEV1J7G_QMdKZzmo8x2VPuHblbf-I_QfrRRcXMz1Jn4t3LSEhFom5zLXcpNEGigvqrxOp/s854/Screen%20Shot%202023-08-05%20at%207.44.59%20AM.png" style="clear: left; float: left; font-size: 24px; font-weight: 700; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="602" data-original-width="854" height="226" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjcrdks9hhSD1HYPXNhMXN0TYrw5GafeOt1uym9HmQPnHaH3HMH0kR1xwd_P4a3agC3_lXupQgsS7AT2u3-9597N1pPUToN0a91XWLmU7xz3Bha2RgSEV1J7G_QMdKZzmo8x2VPuHblbf-I_QfrRRcXMz1Jn4t3LSEhFom5zLXcpNEGigvqrxOp/s320/Screen%20Shot%202023-08-05%20at%207.44.59%20AM.png" width="320" /></a><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></div><p></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">We also see interesting medical remedies in the Bible like in <b>1 Timothy 2:3</b> where Paul instructs Timothy to drink wine instead of water because of his frequent stomach trouble. Paul had no knowledge of parasitology or bacteriology but God influenced him to have Timothy drink a liquid that was fermented, perhaps even distilled, and therefore not likely to contain harmful micro-organisms.<br /></span></p><p><br /></p><p><b style="font-family: courier;">EXAMPLE 3 - 1 Kings 18</b></p><p><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEicOB5bgCfulkg862sZ3NnzyVJ8j0bHI7stdo7NMlbocBzEFiICduu3RxvqeFQJ87IGQTKlln6W-GRm6je7BGL0Pi-n6VHfp1dRORIF4LmjmYR8bi4KM6a1zKA7Wb4S6y2h9KrwLnWRt2X8T-mIrmGZMbwk21HmIcD4Y7xAljf_FVyLoJ5b8Wvv/s1028/Screen%20Shot%202023-08-05%20at%207.42.58%20AM.png" style="clear: left; float: left; font-size: 24px; font-weight: 700; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="738" data-original-width="1028" height="230" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEicOB5bgCfulkg862sZ3NnzyVJ8j0bHI7stdo7NMlbocBzEFiICduu3RxvqeFQJ87IGQTKlln6W-GRm6je7BGL0Pi-n6VHfp1dRORIF4LmjmYR8bi4KM6a1zKA7Wb4S6y2h9KrwLnWRt2X8T-mIrmGZMbwk21HmIcD4Y7xAljf_FVyLoJ5b8Wvv/s320/Screen%20Shot%202023-08-05%20at%207.42.58%20AM.png" width="320" /></a><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>1 Kings 18</b> recounts the showdown between Elijah and the prophets of Baal as to which god should be worshipped, YHWH or BAAL. It was a contest to see, when called upon by their respective prophets, which god would respond with fire and consume a sacrifice of bulls on a wooden altar. This all took place during an extreme drought. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">The prophets of Baal did their thing and no answer came. But then, Elijah did a curious thing. He ordered barrels of water to be heaped upon the altar. First four jars. He saw it wasn't enough and demanded more water. 8 more jars were added until the trough around the altar was filled. THEN the whole thing ignited and it was consumed in flames. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">Science has two possible explanations for how this could have happened: </span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">1) When a<span style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;">nvil lightning stretches across the sky as if from nowhere, pouring tons of water on wood on a mountain would certainly make the altar a major conductor of electricity. The story does show a storm moved in just after this event. Or,</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;"><span style="background-color: white;">2) Because conditions of the altar were completely desiccate and likely already full of ash and minerals, there would be extremely high levels of phosphorus present at the base of the altar. </span></span><b style="font-family: courier;"> </b><span style="font-family: courier;">When water is added to highly concentrated Phosphorus it creates a chemical reaction that produces invisible and highly intense heat. A heat MORE than sufficient to light a fire without an incendiary source.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">Now, did Elijah have Doppler weather radar to view and predict cloud systems many days off? Did he understand the chemistry of catalysts? No. We can only infer that God influenced Elijah with what to say and do. God does not explain to either Elijah, or the reader for that matter, the ways and mechanisms that God used to produce the "miracle" right on time.</span></p><div><span style="font-family: courier;">These three examples are only a few citations where scientific p</span><span style="font-family: courier;">rinciples are manifested in Scripture but the author does not expound on the underlying knowledge or mechanisms that caused the event. We are left simply with a <u>historic narrative</u>, <u>not a manual of scientific proofs</u>. The purpose of the texts are to record events where God interacted with his people in a transcendent way that defied conventional understandings and expectations at the time. <br /><br />The Bible often deals more with the "<i>what</i>" and the "<i>why</i>" and sometimes the "<i>when</i>". Not so much the "<i>how</i>".</span></div><div><br /></div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Evaluating the texts</span></h3><div><br /></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;">With a foundation laid and our hermeneutic principles established, I can now turn more confidently toward our task of evaluating the list of scriptures provided in order to determine whether or not they speak of a flat earth, a globe, either or perhaps even neither. <br /></span><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />Therefore, after I evaluate each of these scriptures proffered in defense of Flat-Earth Theory, I will give them a final rating of whether they support: </span></div><div><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>FLAT</b> earth; </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>GLOBE</b> earth; </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>EITHER</b> theory; or </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>NEITHER</b> theory.</span></li></ul></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;">I have chunked the evaluation list into groups for the type of book they are found within. This understanding will help me better what hermeneutic principles to apply. I have also indicated <i>when </i>in history each book was written for additional historical context. </span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;">The tricky bit being, some narratives like Genesis are written in a certain time period<i> about a</i> <i>prior</i> time period. </span><span style="font-family: courier;">We know Moses was not present at Creation, </span><span style="font-family: courier;">unlike the Gospels wherein we are privileged to read eye-witness accounts and recorded first-hand testimonies. </span></div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><div><h1 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>PROPOSED FLAT EARTH PROOF-TEXTS</b></span></h1><h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Narrative Books</b></span></h2><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Genesis: 1450-1410 B.C.</span></h3><div><ul><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Genesis 1:1-31 <span style="color: #38761d;">GLOBE</span></b></span></li></ul></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">I will deal with Genesis 1:1-31 in a separate post which I've preparing for some time.</div></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"></div></span><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><ul><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Genesis 7:11 <span style="color: #cc0000;">NEITHER</span>.</b> Geology confirms that there are extensive cave systems in the earth. We see modern evidence of geysers, springs, underground rivers and biomes and more. Noah's cataclysm cites a collapse of the water canopy referenced in Gen 1:6 and an upheaval of the waters below within the earth. Neither of these events speak to the shape of the earth being globe or flat as the events could happen in either scenario. And because neither flat-ness or globe-ness are required to support event, this text fails as evidence. </span></li></ul><ul><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Genesis 8:2 <span style="color: #cc0000;">NEITHER</span></b> (See Genesis 7:11)</span></li></ul></div><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Deuteronomy: 1407-1406 B.C. <span style="color: #cc0000;">NEITHER</span></span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="font-size: medium; text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Deuteronomy 28:49, 64 <span style="color: #cc0000;">NEITHER</span></span></li></ul></h3></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><h3 style="text-align: left;"><div style="text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: 400; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: small;"><b>V.49</b> Israel's enemy would come against them "<b>from the end(s) of the earth</b>" this is almost universally regarded by Bible Scholars as a figure of speech, implying "coming from all over & from a far distance away". Josephus connects the dots for us.</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: 400; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: small;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: 400; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: small;"><b>From Barnes' Commentary: </b><i>"The description (compare the marginal references) applies undoubtedly to the Chaldeans, and in a degree to other nations also whom God raised up as ministers of vengeance upon apostate Israel (e. g. the Medes). But it only needs to read this part of the denunciation, and to compare it with the narrative of Josephus, to see that its full and exact accomplishment took place in the wars of Vespasian and Titus against the Jews, as indeed the Jews themselves generally admit." </i> </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: 400; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: small;"><br /><b>From the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary:</b> "<i>The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far—the invasion of the Romans—"they came from far." The soldiers of the invading army were taken from France, Spain, and Britain—then considered "the end of the earth." Julius Severus, the commander, afterwards Vespasian and Hadrian, left Britain for the scene of contest. Moreover, the ensign on the standards of the Roman army was "an eagle"; and the dialects spoken by the soldiers of the different nations that composed that army were altogether unintelligible to the Jews."</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: 400; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: small;">Moses spoke prophetically, but we have the benefit of hindsight to know precisely who Israel's enemy was that fits this description perfectly. </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: 400; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: small;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: 400; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: small;"><b>v64</b> "<b>from one end of the earth to the other</b>". We fail if we try and interpret this as pertaining to geography for neither a disc nor a globe have an "end", neither do they have two"ends" between which to traverse. What there <i>was, </i>was a <span class="s1" style="text-decoration-line: underline;">known extent of mapped lands</span> which were considered the "end of the earth" because the Atlantic and Pacific oceans had not yet been accurately mapped. They only knew of the western lands from Iberia south to Africa and east to the orient. Hence from one "end" (Iberia or West Africa) to the other "end" (East Asia).</span></p></div></h3></blockquote><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">1 Chronicles: 430 B.C. <span style="color: #e69138;">EITHER</span></span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="font-size: medium;"><li><span style="font-family: courier; font-weight: 400;">1 Chronicles 16:30 <i>"</i></span><span style="font-family: courier;"><i style="font-weight: 400;">The world also is firmly established,</i><br style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;" /><span class="text 1Chr-16-30" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px; position: relative;"><i style="font-weight: 400;">It shall not be moved. <br /></i><br />For Globe Theory<span style="font-weight: 400;">, one could claim that the position of the earth in its orbit is on a fixed path. Nothing can dislodge it from its orbit and position relative to sun and other planets and therefore there is no contradiction to what they have observed so far. They would cite Copernicus and Galileo to dispute that the earth is completely fixed. </span><br /><br />For Flat Earth theory<span style="font-weight: 400;">, one could suggest that the disc of the earth is on some sort of immovable platform or that it is in a fixed position in the cosmos with no rotation. They may claim that earth does not move at all and that Copernicus' heliocentric model is wrong. But what is the platform connected to? What affixes the disc to a singular immutable place in the cosmos.What keeps <i>that</i> affixed? Further questions arise as well that do not help the position such as having to explain </span></span><span style="font-weight: 400;">the phenomena of tides, magnetic pole wobbling, and wind currents, and more with a static earth.</span></span></li></ul><span style="font-family: courier;">1, 2 Samuel: 930 B.C. <span style="color: #cc0000;">NEITHER</span></span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><p></p><ul style="font-size: medium; text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier; font-weight: 400;">1 Samuel 2:8. </span><span style="font-family: courier;"><span style="color: #cc0000;">NEITHER</span> <span style="font-weight: 400;">“<i>For the pillars of the earth </i></span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">are</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"> the </span><span class="small-caps divine-name" style="font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-caps: small-caps; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-weight: 400;">LORD</span><span style="font-weight: 400;">’s, </span></i><span class="text 1Sam-2-8" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400; position: relative;"><i>And He has set the world upon them</i>"</span></span></li></ul><p></p></h3></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span style="font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;"><span style="font-size: medium;">To-date, great holes have been bored into the earth to extreme depths and no pillars have been found. The burden to prove physical "pillars" lies with the Flat-Earth Theorist. Many many deep caves feature aspects like "pillars" with their stalagmite and stalactite formations. An ancient person having familiarity with deep caves would undoubtedly view the under-earth as being formed of "pillars" These can exist in either model so this fails as a proof text.</span></span></span></div></h3></div></blockquote><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="font-size: medium;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><span style="font-weight: 400;">2 Samuel 22:8, 16. </span><span style="color: #cc0000;">NEITHER</span><span style="font-weight: 400;"> </span></span></li></ul></h3></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><h3 style="text-align: left;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: small;"><span><span style="font-weight: 400;">v8 "</span></span><i><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span>Then </span><span>the earth shook and trembled; </span></span><span style="background-color: white; font-weight: 400;">The foundations of </span><span style="background-color: white; font-weight: 400;">heaven quaked and were shaken"</span></i></span></p></h3></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">First of all, this is a song and a figurative embellished and fanciful retelling of David's victory against Saul. Not a narrative. Earthquakes are common. Heaven is invisible, but we easily can hear and feel the impact of loud thunder in the skies up in the atmosphere during a storm.</span></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">v 16 "<i>Then the channels of the sea were seen, </i></span><span style="background-color: white;"><i>The foundations of the world were uncovered"</i></span></span></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Today the ocean floor has been mapped as well as all of the "sea channels" Foundations of the world can simply refer to the interior structures of the globe earth, or a Flat-Earther can say, (without empirical or photographic evidence, mind you) that earth literally rests on giant pillars (see 1 Sam 2:8)<br /></span><p style="text-align: left;"> </p></blockquote><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Joshua: 1405-1383 B.C. <span style="color: #e69138;">EITHER</span></span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="font-size: medium;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Joshua 10:12-13 <span style="color: #e69138;">EITHER</span> <i style="font-weight: 400;">"</i></span><i style="font-weight: 400;"><span style="font-family: courier;">So the sun stood still, <span class="text Josh-10-13" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px; position: relative;">And the moon stopped."</span></span></i></li></ul></h3></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span style="font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;">I have seen two major theories from Christian scientists. </span></span></div></h3></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p><span style="font-family: courier;">1) that there was a <a href="https://www.timesofisrael.com/3224-years-later-scientists-see-first-ever-recorded-eclipse-in-joshuas-battle/">visible solar eclipse</a> in the sky on the precise day of that battle, or that </span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">2) <span style="font-size: 16px;">some cite a reversal of earth's orbit and a major shift in the polarity of the earth's magnetic axis.</span></span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><span style="background-color: #fcfdfd; color: #0a0a0a; font-size: 16px;">"The language that Joshua uses in addressing the sun and moon is the language of ordinary observation still used today in the scientific age. Probably Joshua and his contemporaries thought of the sun as moving around the earth, but his language should not be pressed to construct a "view of the universe" any more than should todays reference to the rising and setting of the sun (Marten Woodstra, </span><span style="background-color: #fcfdfd; border: 0px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); box-sizing: border-box; color: #0a0a0a; font-size: 16px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">The Book of Joshua</span><span style="background-color: #fcfdfd; color: #0a0a0a; font-size: 16px;">, Grand Rapids, Eerdmans: 1981, p. 175)."</span></span></i></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">This <a href="https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_625.cfm">study and explanation</a> by Don Stewart is the finest of any I've seen thus far</span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">As far as Flat and Globe Earth theories, both have explanations for eclipses but the Globe Theory explanation of eclipses is far more plausible and proven out by Galileo's work in <a href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereus_nuncius" target="_blank">Sidereus Nuncius</a>. Despite this, I am going to be generous to Flat-Earth and say "<b>either</b>".</span></p></blockquote><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><span style="font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;"><i><br /></i></span></span></div><span style="font-family: courier;">Matthew: A.D. 60-65</span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="font-size: medium;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Matthew 4:8 <span style="color: #cc0000;">NEITHER</span></span></li></ul></h3></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;">"the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and </span><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;">showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory."</span></i></span></div></h3></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">(See Luke 4:5 below) </span></p></blockquote><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="font-size: medium;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Matthew 24:29<span style="font-weight: 400;">, </span><span style="color: #cc0000;">NEITHER</span> <span style="font-weight: 400;">31</span></span></li></ul></h3></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><span class="woj" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;">v 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days</span><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;"> </span><span class="woj" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;">the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken..."</span></span></div></h3></div><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><div><span class="woj" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span class="woj">v31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His</span> <span class="woj">elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."</span></span></span></div></h3></div></blockquote><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><div><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: small;"><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br /></span></span></div><span style="font-family: courier;">Luke: A.D. 60 <span style="color: #cc0000;">NEITHER</span></span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="font-size: medium;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Luke 4:5<span style="font-weight: 400;"> </span><span style="color: #cc0000;">NEITHER</span></span></li></ul></h3></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><div style="text-align: left;"><i><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: small;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">"</span></span><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: small; font-weight: normal;">Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."</span></i></div></h3></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><h3 style="text-align: left;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: small;"><span style="font-weight: 400;">Clearly satan is spiritually projecting a vision for Jesus in a way that you or I cannot see normally or unaided. The telescope was invented in 1608. NOT AD 30. Even with the keenest eyes possible, it would be physically impossible to view ALL the kingdoms of the world from a mountain top whether the earth was globe or flat. </span></span> </div></h3></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><h3 style="text-align: left;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: small;"><span style="font-weight: 400;">Many prophets (Moses, Abraham, Elijah) climbed mountains to converse with God.</span></span> <span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: small;">The mountain has aught to do with Jesus' field of vision but rather because Satan was ever trying to subvert God, he was isolating Jesus to have a private conversation as His heavenly father would. </span></span></div></h3></blockquote><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">John: A.D. 85-90 <span style="color: #cc0000;"> </span></span><span style="color: #cc0000; font-family: courier;">NEITHER</span></h3><div><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">John 17:24 <b><span style="color: #cc0000;">NEITHER</span></b></span></li></ul></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><span class="woj" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;">"Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me;</span><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;"> </span><span class="woj" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;">for You loved Me before the foundation of the world."</span></i></span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">The word John uses here for "foundation" in Greek is </span><span face="Cardo, GentiumAlt, "Galilee Unicode Gk", "Galatia SIL", "Palatino Linotype", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="background-color: white; color: #001320;">καταβολῆς</span><span face="Cardo, GentiumAlt, "Galilee Unicode Gk", "Galatia SIL", "Palatino Linotype", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="background-color: white; color: #001320;"> </span><span face="Cardo, GentiumAlt, "Galilee Unicode Gk", "Galatia SIL", "Palatino Linotype", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="background-color: white; color: #001320;">κόσμου</span><span face="Cardo, GentiumAlt, "Galilee Unicode Gk", "Galatia SIL", "Palatino Linotype", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 21px;"> </span><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-family: courier;">(Katabolés Kosmou)</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-family: courier;">which literally means the "laying down" or better the "establishment","of the world/cosmos" it is not at all speaking of the physical constructs within the earth.</span></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"> </span></p></blockquote><div><div><div><h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b><span> </span><br /></b></span></h2><h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>TO BE CONTINUED...</b></span></h2><h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b><br /></b></span></h2><h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Poetic Books</b></span></h2><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Job: 2100-1800 B.C.</span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Job 9:6-8</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Job 22:12, 14</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Job 26:7, 10</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Job 28:24</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Job 37:3, 8, 10</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Job 38:7, 13, 18</span></li></ul><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalms: 1440-586 B.C.</span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 18:15</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 19:1, 4-6</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 59:13</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 61:2</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 65:5</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 67:7</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 75:3</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 93:1</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 96:10</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 98:3</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 102:25</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 104:1-2, 5</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 136:6</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 148:4</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Psalm 150:1</span></li></ul></h3><h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Prophetic Books</b></span></h2><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Daniel: 535 B.C.</span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Daniel 4:10-11</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Daniel 4:20</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Daniel 8:10</span></li></ul><span style="font-family: courier;">Ezekiel: 571 B.C.</span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Ezekiel 1:22-26</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Ezekiel 10:1</span></li></ul><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah: 700-681 B.C.</span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah 11:12</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah 13:13</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah 22:18</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah 24:18</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah 38:8</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah 40:22</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah 42:5</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah 43:6</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah 44:24</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah 45:12</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah 45:18</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah 45:22</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah 48:13</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Isaiah 66:1</span></li></ul><span style="font-family: courier;">Jeremiah: 627-586 B.C.</span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Jeremiah 16:19</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Jeremiah 25:31-33</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Jeremiah 51:16</span></li></ul><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />Zechariah: 520-480 B.C.</span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Zechariah 1:11</span></li></ul><span style="font-family: courier;">Amos: 760-750 B.C.</span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Amos 9:6</span></li></ul><span style="font-family: courier;">Habbukuk: 612-589 B.C.</span></h3><h3 style="text-align: left;"><ul style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Habbukuk 3:11</span></li></ul><span style="font-family: courier;"><span>Revelation: A.D. 95</span></span></h3></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><ul style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Revelation 1:7</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Revelation 4:6</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Revelation 6:13</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Revelation 7:1</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Revelation 20:8</span></li></ul></span></div><h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Epistles</b></span></h2><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">2 Peter: A.D. 66</span></h3></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><ul style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">2 Peter 3:5</span></li></ul></span></div><h2 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Wisdom Literature Books</b></span></h2><div><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Proverbs: 970-930 B.C.</span></h3></div></div></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><ul style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Proverbs 8:27, 29</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Proverbs 30:4</span></li></ul><h3 style="background-color: white; display: inline; font-family: Times; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Ecclesiastes: 935 B.C.</span></h3><div style="background-color: white; font-family: Times;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><ul style="font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Ecclesiastes 1:5</span></li></ul></span></div></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-65332592254415458292023-05-07T08:25:00.015-04:002023-05-07T09:16:50.972-04:00Days of Future Past (Part 2): Understanding the Prophesies of Dan 9-12, Matt 24, & Rev 12<p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEheFO6LLTJ5MJ2FKTPEdIW2NWOxq7k_3Hkhoq255Tv8i663Xmtzj9Vvd74Xugdk-UKEP7l16ZNMBzFmZXXiCl749YfiozMFLlzNXSOiMuCaZzkhYaNSZcQ21AamJHR_bx61aMMGNrvsZpaWZxotxoTx-bCduZYyjkN-yKxG-1ZwjAjvkqrN0A" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="364" data-original-width="651" height="323" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEheFO6LLTJ5MJ2FKTPEdIW2NWOxq7k_3Hkhoq255Tv8i663Xmtzj9Vvd74Xugdk-UKEP7l16ZNMBzFmZXXiCl749YfiozMFLlzNXSOiMuCaZzkhYaNSZcQ21AamJHR_bx61aMMGNrvsZpaWZxotxoTx-bCduZYyjkN-yKxG-1ZwjAjvkqrN0A=w576-h323" width="576" /></a></span></div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /><br /></span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Continued from prior post:</span></p><h3 class="post-title entry-title" style="background-color: white; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="color: #6aa84f; font-family: helvetica; font-size: small;"><a href="https://riverforum.blogspot.com/2022/05/the-prophesies-of-daniel-9-12-are-they.html" style="font-weight: 500;" target="_blank">Days of Future Past: Understanding the Prophesies of Daniel 9-12</a></span></h3><h3 class="post-title entry-title" style="background-color: white; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: small;"><br /></span></h3><p style="background-color: white; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: medium; font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://riverforum.blogspot.com/2022/05/the-prophesies-of-daniel-9-12-are-they.html" target="_blank">Link to Original Article</a></span></p><h3 class="post-title entry-title" style="background-color: white; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: small;"><br /><span style="color: #212121;"><span style="font-weight: 500;">And continuing related commentary on David Bernard's exposition:<br /></span></span></span></h3><h1 class="style-scope ytd-watch-metadata" style="-webkit-box-orient: vertical; -webkit-line-clamp: 2; background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border: 0px; color: #0f0f0f; display: -webkit-box; font-family: "YouTube Sans", Roboto, sans-serif; line-height: 2.8rem; margin: 0px; max-height: 5.6rem; overflow: hidden; padding: 0px; text-overflow: ellipsis; word-break: break-word;"><yt-formatted-string class="style-scope ytd-watch-metadata" force-default-style=""><span style="font-size: small; font-weight: normal;"><u><a href="https://youtu.be/CJsU04427xQ">Has Revelation Already Been Fulfilled? | Episode 104</a></u></span></yt-formatted-string></h1><h3 class="post-title entry-title" style="background-color: white; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></h3><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>RIVERFORUM</b></span></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">While I generally with Dr. Bernard on some key points, I do not believe that preterism in general is wholly inconsistent with Apostolic Theology.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>While some preterists may make errors in their evaluation of scripture, we should be clear that preterism should be understood as a perspective or lens through which we can examine Bible prophesies to determine whether the predicted events have come to pass already or if they have yet to be fulfilled (futurist).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Preterism should not be deemed a "doctrine", rather it is a means of interpretive approach. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Dogmatically asserting preterism MUST be the filter to interpret all prophetic texts produces just as much error as does the Futurist position that all prophesy applies not at ALL to the last 2000 years or more, but is for ours and future generations alone.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>WHOLESALE NT Preterism and Futurism can BOTH fail, each's proponents having to make many leaps and suppositions to find an unshifting foothold.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Both camps produce a lot of strange teachings. By contrast, asserting that preterism can NEVER be used to understand prophesy is very short sighted and exposes an unrealistic bias that favors dogmatic ignorance over truthful inquiry.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Again, correctly understood and applied, Preterism and Futurism are BIASES, not doctrines, through which we evaluate scripture.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>As a rule, Revelation as a NEW TESTAMENT text should be evaluated BOTH preteristically AND futuristically in a balanced means of inquiry.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">As outlined in <a href="https://riverforum.blogspot.com/2022/05/the-prophesies-of-daniel-9-12-are-they.html" target="_blank">my prior article</a>, there is a VERY STRONG case to make for the the preterist reading of the OLD TESTAMENT book of Daniel chapters 9-12 which does NOT impact our traditional understanding of the eschatological timelines for future events given by Matthew, Thessalonians, and Revelation, nor does it undermine core Apostolic Theology in any way. The facts below are easily corroborated with most encyclopedias.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">As a matter of brief overview:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Daniel 11:36 refers to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, of the Seleucid Empire. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Daniel 11:45 refers to the Greek Citadel called the Acra he erected in Jerusalem. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Daniel 12:11 refers to two events: 1) when Antiochus IV enters Jerusalem and outlawed animal sacrifice and other Jewish laws and customs, and then 1290 days later 2) when the Temple was "made desolate"</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">According to Josephus:</p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">"In 167 BCE, Antiochus IV Epiphanes ordered an altar to Zeus erected in the Temple. He also, according to Josephus, "compelled Jews to dissolve the laws of the country, to keep their infants un-circumcised, and to sacrifice swine's flesh upon the altar; against which they all opposed themselves, and the most approved among them were put to death."<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">From Antiochus IV Epiphanes onward to the time of Roman Emperor Vespasian's control over Judea, there would be no sacrifices for sin performed in the jewish high temple.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">(Daniel 9:25) says "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>By the time of Christ, John 10:22-23 depicts Jesus present for the Hannukah remembrance at Solomon's Colonnade (porch)</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Hannukah is celebrated by modern Jews in remembrance of the Maccabee's revolt against Antiochus, and their subsequent rededication of the temple.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Judas Maccabee also rebuilt the walls as prophesied by Daniel 9:25.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">So Daniel 9:25-26 takes us from the end of Antiochus' interference with the Jews around 167 BC, through the Maccabeean period (between the Old and New Testaments) to the time of the birth of Jesus Christ, and the Roman occupation.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">In fact, in accordance with Daniel 9:26, Jerusalem, and the Temple were destroyed utterly in AD 70 by Roman Emperor Vespasian's son and general, Titus. Titus eventually became Caesar himself and took on the name Titus Caesar Vespasianus, after his father.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Josephus claims that because they were gathered for Passover, over 1.1 million jews were killed in Titus' Seige of Jerusalem (AD 70) and that "Titus and his soldiers celebrated victory upon their return to Rome by parading the Menorah and Table of the Bread of God's Presence through the streets."</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Daniel 9:24 is interesting in that it seems to give a time frame during which certain things must occur which did actually occur:</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">1. To finish the transgression and make an end to sins.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>"The transgression" is Adam's sin, as in bring the sin of man to an end, also ending sacrifices for sins.</p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">2. To make reconciliation for iniquity and bring in everlasting righteousness.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>This would be accomplished by the crucifixion of Jesus and subsequent resurrection.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">3. To seal up the vision and prophesy. Meaning the words of Daniel are already fulfilled.</p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">4. To anoint the most Holy.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>This does not mean the temple, but Jesus himself. Being anointed in life and in death by John for his ministry and by the women who anointed his body.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Daniel 12:1 most likely refers to the edict of Herod (Rachel’s Lamentation) to kill all the newborn children in Judea, and the soon coming of Christ the Deliverer.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">(Daniel 12:2) refers to the many resurrections that happened in Jerusalem when He, Jesus Christ, was crucified. (Matthew 27:50-54).</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">(Daniel 9:24) speaks of 70 weeks. This is typically interpreted as "weeks of years" referring to the destruction of the Temple by Titus in AD 70.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">(Daniel 9:26-27) speaks of the cutting off of the Messiah (crucifixion, end of the earthly ministry) and how subsequently Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed. It was in fact destroyed by the Romans and their "prince" (note Titus was the SON of Emperor Vespasian at the time, thus a "prince") and thus the final ending of potential jewish sacrifices and temple worship was complete.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">We also see mention of Alexander the Great, and the division of Alexander's kingdom into the 4 subsequent dynasties (the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt, the Seleucid Empire in the east, the Kingdom of Pergamon in Asia Minor, and Macedon) including the subsequent wars between these kingdoms.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>This history is well covered in Halley's Bible Handbook.</p></div><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Commentor: Re link above<br /><br /></b></span></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Personally I have avoided eschatology .I remember in the early 80s the ten toes were the European common market we now no that to be incorrect and the bar code was the mark of the beast.Ever changing escatology that often seems like science fiction makes for great cinema like the left behind series.</b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Please explain Matthew 24 in particular when it says (you) who is the ( you)?</b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>I don't like preterism it leaves us with out a rode map for the future.</b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Some bible scholars contend The prophecy of Jesus failed' God forbid!'</b></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><h2 style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: small;"><b>RiverForum</b></span></h2><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 13px;">As a general disclaimer, I am not a universal preterist. I am of a mind, however that IF there is a strong case to be made which aligns Bible prophesy with actual historical events that occur following or contemporary with the text - they should be evaluated without applying confirmation bias that automatically assumes that all predicted eschatology applies to either our generation or future generations, and none at all of the past 20 centuries since Christ. <br /><br />This sort of intellectual laziness can lead to all manner of strange and unbiblical time-wasting doctrines which could be easily avoided. </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">We should not fear to examine scripture in the light of history, science, archaeology, or any other evidentiary discipline.</span></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br />That being said, regarding Matthew 24, there is a strong case to be made for the preterist lens because Jesus does speak of "this generation" not as referring to an overall Epoch of the church age, but as in events which would occur during the lifetimes of those he was addressing.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Jesus cites Daniel which, <a href="https://riverforum.blogspot.com/2022/05/the-prophesies-of-daniel-9-12-are-they.html">as I've already outlined</a>, was being fulfilled at that time and to us, looking back, is completed.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>History does record that the Christians fled to the surrounding countryside during the Seige of Jerusalem having been forewarned by Jesus.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>v21 uses a hyperbolic device used many other places in scripture. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Not all revelation can be read as fulfilled prophesy, but </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Revelation 12 (as connected to Daniel 9 and Matthew 24) certainly contains some events that are fulfilled in past to us, but were current/to come when written.</span><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="font-family: helvetica;"> </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">If we accept the traditional date of Johannine authorship to be around AD 95-99, it helps us understand what we read as being either past, present, or predicate.</span><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="font-family: helvetica;"> </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Remember contextually that John was writing this book, in his later years, from prison at at time when all the remaining disciples had been martyred.</span><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="font-family: helvetica;"> </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">There was sound reason for him to write in a more allegorical style - one which would be understood by his church contemporaries but not as easily by his captors.</span><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="font-family: helvetica;"> </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Let's break down Revelation 12</span></h3><p></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">v 1-2 The woman clothed in 12 stars is Israel, about to birth the Messiah. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">v3-4 Then we see Satan cast out of heaven ready to devour the child. This happened when Herod sent his edict to kill the firstborn<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">v5 speaks of the ministry and ascension of Christ</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">v6 speaks of Jewish Diaspora after the time of Christ</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">v7-9 Satan tries to get back into heaven but is defeated by Michael and the power of the blood. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">v 10-12 Remember in Job how Satan would come into the throne room to accuse? No more. He was/is overcome by Jesus' blood.</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">v 13 Angered, Satan tries to destroy Israel (AD 70 temple and other persecutions)</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">v 14 refers again to Jewish diaspora, persecution, and satan's failure to obliterate them</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">v15 then, Satan shifts his focus to the church</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Eusebius records <b>10 persecutions</b> against the church from Tiberias to Diocletian until the Edict of Milan so it is quite possible that the early churches looked at this period as a time of great tribulation. Not only were the Jews under attack, but the church as well.</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">There have been 2000 years of history since Christ, most of which many people are ignorant of.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Some of these prophesies were given to the church for that age for the purpose of helping them survive.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> <br /><b><br />However, i</b></span><b>s there a case to be made for things prophesied and fulfilled which may ALSO be predicate for OUR time?</b></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">We do have examples of what I call a "Super-Prophesy" where an event is predicted, it happens, and as a real event it stands also as typologically predictive event which in and of itself either prophesies or helps us understand ANOTHER future event.</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Some Cases are:</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">1. Abraham was promised a son, Isaac is born as foretold, then is told to execute him, etc as typology for Christ to come. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">2. Noah is told about the flood, 8 are saved through water, typology for Christian Water Baptism explained in 1 Peter 3</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">many other examples exist... SO while some events can certainly be deemed to have occurred post Bible pre-today, they <i>could</i> have enhanced predictive value for our end times. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">I understand your sentiment about not having as clear a future roadmap - but that is what should keep us seeking and operating in the gifts of the Spirit - especially prophesy.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Remember that between the Old and New Testaments there is a 400 year period of prophetic silence and then an explosion of fulfilled prophesy. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Same thing when the jews were in Egypt. 400 years of nothing and then the time of deliverance. </span><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="font-family: helvetica;"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">You don't have to understand it all. </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Just stay ready.</span><span style="font-family: helvetica;"> </span></p></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-34870244067566822602023-04-25T01:11:00.032-04:002023-04-25T11:38:47.535-04:00Should we accept the Mormon "Book of Enos" as part of the Christian Bible?<p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhh26iy2thhMBPkzvRcMhOnxzIkGLtut5Fail08hyNa8tJ1fiSi3tyCNxW0vck7WJ_LIruxbn2sjnqqyQ1WO3Q4ZufDZIeQMyknVwdcd6CK6zIfVObXc0UkAyrgpbFf--F4NRfGxVGJZTG1jnwh_Gub3vddBNF6WSDWATlnudB5V1st9of1iw" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="876" data-original-width="870" height="385" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhh26iy2thhMBPkzvRcMhOnxzIkGLtut5Fail08hyNa8tJ1fiSi3tyCNxW0vck7WJ_LIruxbn2sjnqqyQ1WO3Q4ZufDZIeQMyknVwdcd6CK6zIfVObXc0UkAyrgpbFf--F4NRfGxVGJZTG1jnwh_Gub3vddBNF6WSDWATlnudB5V1st9of1iw=w382-h385" width="382" /></a></div><br /><br /></div><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue";"><p><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue";"><b>Mormon: Shares a story about Enos and how wonderful it was that God forgave him after he repented of his sin. </b> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue";">RIVERFORUM</span></p><p>This is not scripture</p><p><b>Mormon: Repenting is not scripture?</b></p><p>RIVERFORUM</p>No, the "Book of Enos" is not Scripture. There is a <b>Book of Enoch</b> which is an OLD testament Pseudoepigraphic work found in the Dead Sea Scrolls dated sometime between 260 BC and 160 AD.</span><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue";"> </span><p></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">The "Book of Enos" was written in the 19th century and is a Mormon text, NOT an ancient Biblical Text originating from Apostolic authorship or eye witness testimony recorded contemporary with either the ministry of Jesus or the Apostles.<br /><br />It is NOT part of the Christian canon of Holy Scripture. Further, it says that Enos was of the “Nephites” and mentions “Lamanites” which are a fictional tribe of diasporated Jews invented by Joseph Smith whose existence is heretofore uncorroborated by any historical or paleo-archaeological evidence.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>These names sound biblical but they are made up.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Neither Nephites nor Lamanites ever existed. Unlike all actual 12 tribes of Israel which have external corroboration INCLUDING actual living genetic descendants.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">In short, this book is a modern pseudoepigraphical (claims to be authored by the writer but it is not the actual person) work, modern theological fiction, which although it “sounds” like the style of “King James” English is not scripture.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>There are no manuscripts for the text of the Book of Enos from ancient to modern times. The entire New Testament was written in Greek and Aramaic not in English.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>AND we have MANY manuscripts and verified original NT canon fragments dating to the 1st century AD. For the Book of Enos - none.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">So yes, “repentance” is a biblical concept which is discussed in this book, however this book is not Scripture and should not be treated as such.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Any other gospel or testimony of Jesus Christ that differs from that given by the Apostles is false teaching.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">1800 years before Joseph Smith walked this planet, the Apostle Paul warned us about angels preaching false gospels.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>His (real person) letter to the church in Galatia (a real historic church), written in 49 A.D. only 16 years after the resurrection of Jesus. says this:</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b><i>Galatians</i> </b></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"> </p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i>1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.</i></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><i><br /></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i>9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.</i></p></blockquote><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">This letter is the OLDEST in the New Testament canon, meaning it is the FIRST book in use by the church at large - even before the synoptic gospels were written. And in that VERY first chapter of that VERY first letter we are WARNED against testimonies of Jesus that differ from the Apostles or which claim Apostolic Authority.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">The revelations Smith claimed to receive from the angel WERE a different gospel. In fact the very cover of your Book of Mormon declares that it is “Another” Testament of Jesus Christ. Paul specifically told us that there IS NO OTHER GOSPEL than that taught by the Apostles.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">So, while this little story about the fictional man Enos is nice, accepting the book as Scripture means we have to accept the apostolic authority and/or the divine inspiration of its author which we cannot. Especially when the full corpus of Smith's other works stand in clear contradiction to both the canon of the ACTUAL Bible and the sum total knowledge of all of ecclesiastical history since the time of Christ.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">In summary. False scripture. Reject it. Follow the true gospel written by the apostles themselves - those that followed and KNEW Jesus and his apostles.<br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">According to Michael Coe, pre-Columbian Scholar, Smithsonian Institution. -<br /><br /></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i>"Mormon archaeologists over the years have almost unanimously accepted the Book of Mormon as an accurate, historical account of the New World peoples.</i></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><br /></i></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i>... Let me now state uncategorically that as far as I know there is not one professionally trained archaeologist, who is not a Mormon, who sees any scientific justification for believing the foregoing to be true, and I would like to state that there are quite a few Mormon archaeologists who join this group.</i></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><br /></i></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i>... The bare facts of the matter are that nothing, absolutely nothing, has even shown up in any New World excavation which would suggest to a dispassionate observer that the Book of Mormon, as claimed by Joseph Smith, is a historical document relating to the history of early migrants to our hemisphere"</i></p></blockquote><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b>Mormon: You are correct that the Book of Mormon was translated by Joseph Smith in early 1800s. Does it contain amazing truths? Obviously YES. So learn from it. That's all Johnathon is saying here. Try to take it easy on the guy, and extend some charity. His production value on this video is pretty great for a smart phone, and it has a great message</b></p><p class="p3" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 16px;"><b></b><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">To ask someone to sift kernels of truth out of the sheaves of lies is at worst deceptive and at best lazy.<br /><br />1. There is no manuscript. It was not "translated", it was written in English in the 1800's mimicking the rhetorical STYLE of the 1611 King James Version of the English Bible.<br /><br />2. There is no "Enos", the man did not exist. v1<br /><br />3. There are no Nephites or Lamanites v.13<br /><br />4. All New Testament conversion stories (Acts of the Apostles) couple remission of sins with water Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. This book omits that critical doctrinal point. v5.<br /><br />5. The Lord did not tell the fictional Enos that he would visit the fictional Nephites because God does not Lie. v.10<br /><br />6. The Lord obviously did NOT perserve a record of the Nephites since they never existed v.13<br /><br />7. The Lord ceased to deal with peoples according to tribes and lands after the Cross. He would not have dealt with a people group thus after the atonement. This is Old Testament thinking inconsistent with the New Covenant v.10<br /><br />8. the book quotes King James bible not source texts proving forgery and plagiarism v.15<br /><br />and on and on and on.<br /><br />The book contains LIES, sir. And that is the point.<br /><br />It is the work of the adversary to play such games with semantics and twisting of words and concepts.<br /><br />Eve was first deceived by the serpent who began with "hath god said?"<br /><br />And then, Satan offered his OWN plausible version of what God had actually commanded. This, regrettably, is no different. Lies which cleverly steer people away from the TRUE gospel of Jesus Christ.</p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b>Mormon: Long retort, smartly done, but no consistent. The apocrypha is doctrine according to catholics, and it's written a long time ago too, and it was included in the canonized works for hundreds of yrs, but it wasn't by King James so it's not in the Bible. There are many books in the dead sea scrolls as well that aren't in the Bible, and those were written a long time ago. Under your learning these are scripture. Do you accept them as such? Consistency now sir.</b></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">The Dead Sea Scrolls are dated to 300-75 B.C. and do not contain ANY testimony therefore of Jesus Christ or his followers. The Tanakh, was formed 140-40 B.C. which lists all OT books in the protestant canon and NONE of the apocrypha. The OT Canon was solidified by the time of Christ and was recorded by Josephus (95 AD) and it did NOT include any texts from the CATHOLIC apocrypha.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">The Apocrypha is NOT doctrine according to the Christian Church and according to the main corpus of Christianity, Catholicism is an apostate church movement which arose in the 4th century only after the Edict of Milan and certain bishops' political alignment with Imperial Rome.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>The Catholic Apocryphal books are OLD TESTAMENT and INTER-TESTAMENT, but not NEW TESTAMENT works.<br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">The books in question are these:<br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"></span></p><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="t1" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><tbody><tr><td class="td1" style="border-color: rgb(154, 154, 154); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; padding: 1px 5px;" valign="top"><p class="p1" style="font-family: ".AppleSystemUIFont"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Tobit</p></td></tr><tr><td class="td1" style="border-color: rgb(154, 154, 154); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; padding: 1px 5px;" valign="top"><p class="p1" style="font-family: ".AppleSystemUIFont"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Judith</p></td></tr><tr><td class="td1" style="border-color: rgb(154, 154, 154); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; padding: 1px 5px;" valign="top"><p class="p1" style="font-family: ".AppleSystemUIFont"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">1 Maccabees</p></td></tr><tr><td class="td1" style="border-color: rgb(154, 154, 154); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; padding: 1px 5px;" valign="top"><p class="p1" style="font-family: ".AppleSystemUIFont"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">2 Maccabees</p></td></tr><tr><td class="td1" style="border-color: rgb(154, 154, 154); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; padding: 1px 5px;" valign="top"><p class="p1" style="font-family: ".AppleSystemUIFont"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Song of Songs</p></td></tr><tr><td class="td1" style="border-color: rgb(154, 154, 154); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; padding: 1px 5px;" valign="top"><p class="p1" style="font-family: ".AppleSystemUIFont"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Wisdom</p></td></tr><tr><td class="td1" style="border-color: rgb(154, 154, 154); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; padding: 1px 5px;" valign="top"><p class="p1" style="font-family: ".AppleSystemUIFont"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Sirach (Wisdom of Jesus Ben Sira)</p></td></tr><tr><td class="td1" style="border-color: rgb(154, 154, 154); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; padding: 1px 5px;" valign="top"><p class="p1" style="font-family: ".AppleSystemUIFont"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Baruch</p></td></tr><tr><td class="td1" style="border-color: rgb(154, 154, 154); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; padding: 1px 5px;" valign="top"><p class="p1" style="font-family: ".AppleSystemUIFont"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Song of the Three Children</p></td></tr><tr><td class="td1" style="border-color: rgb(154, 154, 154); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; padding: 1px 5px;" valign="top"><p class="p1" style="font-family: ".AppleSystemUIFont"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Story of Susanna</p></td></tr><tr><td class="td1" style="border-color: rgb(154, 154, 154); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; padding: 1px 5px;" valign="top"><p class="p1" style="font-family: ".AppleSystemUIFont"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">The Idol Bel and the Dragon</p></td></tr><tr><td class="td1" style="border-color: rgb(154, 154, 154); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; padding: 1px 5px;" valign="top"><p class="p1" style="font-family: ".AppleSystemUIFont"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Prayer of Mannassah (in Daniel)</p></td></tr></tbody></table><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">You are correct that the KJV doesn't include the apocrypha. The English were using the incomplete Tyndale (1522) and Coverdale (1535) Bibles until the King James Version (1611) all of which omit the Apocrypha. Since most of Christendom and even Catholicism rejected it from the start and all Bibles still exclude it, your point about early canonical inclusion is not strong. In practice, the Apocrypha really wasn't even effectuated in the Catholic Church until the Council of Trent (1545-1563) being quite clearly a counter-reformation measure. And again, as early as 95 AD, Josephus' OT canon excluded the eventual apocrypha.<br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Now, the oldest NEW TESTAMENT Canon we have are from Origen and Eusebius circa 250-260 AD which align fully to the present day NT protestant canon. The Muratorian fragment lists most and is a translated copy in media-res of what is believed to be a Greek canon from AD 140-170, again excludes the OT Apocrypha. The accepted canon found in Novum Testemantum Graece lists all NT canon books as we now have them today. The canon therefore of New Testament texts can be said to have been established as early as 140 AD (within 45 year of the death of the Apostle John and his Gospel) and as late as 367 appearing in Athanasius' Festal Letter.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">BIG POINT HERE:</p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">There are NO NT era Apocryphal texts that ever existed or were considered in the formation of the New Testament canon which deal with Jesus or the Christian era. There were no rejected or disputed books either that dangled in use in EITHER the Catholic or Protestant Churches with the possible exception of the writings of the Shepherd of Hermas. Hermas was an actual early church father whose authorship is not disputed, but whose writings were never under serious consideration for a canonical work. His writings were considered "recommended" reading, but not taken as Divine Scripture. To this day, The Shepherd of Hermas' writing exists on its own as simply the private thoughts and observations of a theologian.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">HOW DO WE KNOW ALL OF THIS ABOUT THE BIBLE?<br />We know this because we have the documents, the manuscripts, the source texts, the letters, and the original greek copies. The NT canon were scrutinized heavily by ALL believers and critics across what is now almost 2000 years and the books are sustained better than even any extant work of Shakespeare!<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;">BY CONTRAST</p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">The Book of Mormon provides NONE of these corroborations to defend and authenticate its authority as a holy text. It fails almost every standard of textual analysis. No Mormon text was ever circulated by the church because they did not exist. There is NO CASE for canonization of MORMON TEXTS into the OT/IT/NT BIBLE canon.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">SO WHAT IS THE BOOK OF ENOS THEN? <br /><br /><span style="font-size: medium;">The "Book of Enos" is a modern (1800's) fictional (invented) Pseudoepigraphical story, which means we know the author (Joseph Smith) and we know he is writing under an assumed name in the first person (as "Enos").</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">IS THE BOOK OF ENOS CHRISTIAN APOCRYPHA?<br /><br />No. Neither the Book of Enos or any of the Book of Mormon can be considered by the Christian Church to be Apocrypha. Apocryphal books would have been those that existed at the TIME that the NT was written and compiled but "were not received by a common consent to be read and expounded publicly in the Church" (Luther).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> <br /><br />No early canon includes such ancient Mormon outliers because </span>NOT ONE of the books in the Book of Mormon was ever brought before the church in even the first thousand year for canonization. So, without mention, without manuscripts/sources, without corroboration, they can be said to not have existed at the time. In fact, date of authorship to the 1800's is not disputed. </p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">The Book of Mormon is NOT a collection of ancient recovered Apocryphal texts or even disputed texts (antilegomania). It is the invention of a modern man who desired to create a religion and hijack Christianity, Christ, and its concepts for his own posterity. </p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br />Sadly, despite the complete lack of manuscripts, Mormons will not accept the notion of Smith's fraudulent "authorship". They will agree the "Book of Enos" was written by Smith in the 1800's, but written as a "translation" not an "invention". When pressed, they cannot produce source documents from which they were translated. Quite unlike <b><i><u>every</u></i></b> English Bible which CAN produce the source documents in Koine Greek and Latin from which they derive.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>Mormon - A lot of people on this thread are self attesting atheists. Wouldn't it be great for them to believe in Jesus even if they learned about Him from a Mormon?? Better than Atheism, right?</b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Regarding atheists on this post. Most atheists actually exhibit strong qualities of critical thinking and cynicism which keeps them as safely away from the lies of Mormonism as it does God's Truth. <br /><br />It would GRIEVE God actually if you were to convince an atheist to become a Deist only to deliver them into a lie. Any smart atheist worth their weight in salt can already see past the nonsense. Any serious critical scholarly inquiry produces the same result. <br /><br />IN fact you are like those in Matthew 23:15 that Jesus himself condemns for preaching lies:</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><i>“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."</i></p></blockquote><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">So according to Jesus himself, "NO" it is not better that they learn lies about God from this well meaning man than they learn the Truth.<br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b>Mormon: I hear you. But what even with everything you said, what if you still believe God brought you the book to learn about Him through it?</b></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">I hear you too, but what if YOU accepted that God brought this Lie to my attention in order to provide a stalwart against the deception being offered. All to prove to YOU, by demonstrating the falsehood of the text, its sources, authorship and message which do NOT speak or teach of the true Jesus Christ. The Christian Bible was authored by contemporaries and holds eye witness accounts of Jesus by those whom Jesus taught directly.</p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><i><b>2 Peter 1:16</b></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><i>For we have not followed cunningly devised <b>fables</b>, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.</i></span></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">The Mormon text robs well-meaning people of the TRUTH of Jesus Christ and exchanges it for a cheap system of second-hand lies.<br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b>2 Timothy 3:3-9</b> warns us that in the last days (these are the last days) that there will be religious people like those who follow Jospeh Smith which...<br /><br /></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i>5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.</i></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i>6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires,</i></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i>7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.</i></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i>8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.</i></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i>9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.</i></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">IN SUMMARY<br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">THE FOLLY of Mormonism is clear to all those of serious rational mind - especially to Spirit-Filled followers of Jesus himself.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Follow the BIBLE not the works of Joseph Smith. <br /><br />And to your point I will say this, that God has not led me to the Book of Mormon to be instructed by it. He has already revealed its nature to me.<br /><br />Rather, (like Aquila and Priscilla below) he leads ME to sincere Mormons who need correction and pointing away from Joseph Smith toward the REAL Jesus Christ and TRUE Salvation through His Gospel.</p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><i><b>Proverbs 3:5-6</b></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><i>Trust in the Lord with all <b>your</b> heart and <b>lean</b> <b>not</b> <b>on</b> <b>your</b> <b>own</b> <b>understanding</b>; in all <b>your</b> ways submit to him, and he will make <b>your</b> paths straight.</i></span></p></blockquote><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Consider the Bible example of Apollos in <b>Acts 18:24-28</b></span><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><b>24 </b>And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.</i></p></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><b>25 </b>This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.</i></p></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><b>26 </b>And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.</i></p></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><b>27 </b>And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:</i></p></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><b style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue";">28 </b><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue;">For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.</span></i></p></div></blockquote><div><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /><span style="font-family: helvetica;">So here we have Apollos, a man who loves God and is sharing with everyone he knows the measure of truth that he knows and understands. Yet, God causes his path to cross Aquila and Priscilla who correct his understanding and teach him more accurately/perfectly how to understand Jesus and he then became very effective in his evangelism. However, that still left the people behind whom he taught in Ephesus who were only taught this partial truth. God LOVED Apollos and his zeal enough that he would care to send him Apostles of the Church to keep him in the Truth.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: medium;">And then look what happens in<b> Acts 19:1-8</b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><b>1 </b>And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,</i></p></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><b>2 </b>He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.</i></p></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><b>3 </b>And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.</i></p></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><b>4 </b>Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.</i></p></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><b>5 </b>When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.</i></p></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><b>6 </b>And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.</i></p></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><b>7 </b>And all the men were about twelve.</i></p></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><b>8 </b>And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.</i></p></div></blockquote><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br />The Apostle Paul arrives on the scene and fills in for the people whom Apollos originally taught partial truth.with the rest of the story. This brings Apollos, and the people he ministered to into harmony with the FULL gospel of Jesus Christ.</span></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b>Mormon: great info and study good sir. I very much appreciate the enlightenment on the historical texts. I personally believe the apocrypha and dead sea scrolls ARE scripture with much good learning coming from them. But Under your view I guess we are supposed to cast the catholics and apocrypha aside bc of apostasy. Nothing to learn from them. No scripture to come from their Saints over 2k years, & only the reformed Christians of the last few hundred yrs can show us the right way. Well...My thoughts bring me elsewhere, that all good is from God, and if this book of Enos can gives us good life lessons then I'll look into it. That has been my position from the start, whether Mormon or Hindu or Confucius or catholic or non-denominational. In this case, Jonathan is giving us a great lesson from what he deems as scripture that tells us a repentance story. He believes it's scripture from a Modern day prophet. You say you don't believe in modern prophets. You also don't believe in many ancient prophets in those books you denounce. This is all fine. We all should believe what speaks truth to us. This story speaks truth to me, so I'll believe in the repentance teachings here explained. Simple as that</b></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b><br /></b></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b><br /></b></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">RIVERFORUM<br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">1. whether you personally believe that Apocrypha and dead sea scrolls are "scripture" is immaterial to whether they are or they aren't. It is not a subjective matter. The Dead Sea Scrolls are not representative of an authoritative canon, they are simply a collection of scrolls. In fact 19 Old Testament books are outright missing, only 1 Apocryphal book (Sirach) is present, and the rest are disputed and pseudoepigraphic texts. Only 20 of the Hebrew Scriptures are present. Not all ancient books are "Scripture". Is the point. And you don't get to determine the canon because you like certain books.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">2. Can we learn from ancient sources? Of course. I read the Apocrypha and many ancient texts.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">3. We ARE supposed to cast aside as "scripture" those books which are not scripture, most definitely.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">4. The New Testament was completed in around AD 95 and the canon settled as I previously documented between 140-367 AD.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">5. "only the reformed Christians of the last few hundred yrs can show us the right way" I don't even know what you mean by this. Are you being sarcastic or stating an opinion? Certainly you don't believe that latter day prophets exceed the Divine Authority held by the Apostles?</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">6. Yes. moral teaching can be found in many places. But to look for Scripture, the Holy Bible is the only way. <br /><br /></p></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i>John 5:39</i></p></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i>"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."</i></p></div></blockquote><div><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">7. Jonathan is sharing something yes, but he believes in ERROR that this book is divinely inspired of God when it is a fraudulent text. The power of deception is that the lie appears to be truth!</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">8. Joseph Smith is not a "modern day prophet" because he preached a gospel message that contradicts the Apostles. Again Galatians 1:8-9 speaks about this. He is a false teacher.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">9. "You say you don't believe in modern prophets." I never said this. I do believe in the five fold ministry, the office of prophet, and the gift(s) of prophesy as outline by Paul in his epistles to the Corinthian church.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">10. "We all should believe what speaks truth to us. This story speaks truth to me." Again sir, this entire book I have shown to be fabrications and have cited many many reasons why. If you want anecdotes about true Christian conversion, read the book of Acts. Truth is not subjective. The book of Acts records actual historical events. This book of Enos recounts imaginary events. It is therefore NOT speaking truth to you. It is using honeyed words that sound like scripture to deceive you into thinking the author is a prophet when he is not. You are calling lies "the truth to you". I submit that you have itchy ears and it is telling you what you want to hear.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Now that you have learned that the "Book of Enos" and understand its companion texts in the Book of Mormon are not Scripture, and knowing that you already love God in the way that you've been shown so far:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Do you have enough courage to discard the Book of Mormon and put your trust in the actual Word of God, The Bible?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Do you want to know the REAL Jesus Christ?</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Do you want to make sure that you are following the correct path to God?</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Do you want to lead the people you love and care about to Truth?</span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">It is time for you to walk way from fables and into the marvelous light of Scripture.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><i>1 Timothy 1:4</i></p></div><div><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px; text-align: left;"><i><br /></i></p></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><i>Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so DO.</i></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Think about it. Why would I, a total stranger to you, go to such great lengths to convince you of these great errors if heaven and hell were not at stake for you? <br /><br />God loves you too much to let you bargain the birthright of your TRUE salvation for a cheap cup of soup the way Esau did. </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Why accept the counterfeit when you have easy access to the real thing? Matthew tells us in his gospel these words of Jesus:</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue;"><i>Matthew 13:45-46</i></span></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"> </blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i>45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:</i></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><i><br /></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i>46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.</i></p></blockquote><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Unshackle yourself from the cheap imitation that is the Book of Mormon and embrace the real Word of God. </p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Mormon - Excellent sermon sir, persuasive and full of conviction. I applaud you for your valiant spirit. I appreciate your love of strangers as the Samaritan had. I also appreciate the poster for his love of Samaritans. He is trying to share truths he has found, as you are. I say we applaud his valiant spirit as well. There is truth to be learned from his posts in their sweet simplicity. This is what I've been saying from the beginning as others have been sighting historical/archeological data. I hear you and your points. Well said. I think there is a TON more there to discuss. But you haven't yet said anything about Jonathan message of repentance. It's a great message! It's about walking away from sin and improving. This is a great message, but you've been stuck on whether or not it's technically scripture under your definitions. There's a simple view of his posts, thet they are spreading goodness and light, scripture study and self improvement, prayer and service. I think these are the great lessons of the day bc they encompass Gods 2 great commandments...love God, and love our neighbors.</b><br /><br />Repentance is sweet indeed, only you have them repenting to the wrong God! <br /><br />The god of the Book of Mormon is NOT the God defined by the Bible. Mormons are polytheist. There is ONE God (Deut 6:4) and Jesus is the ONE God made flesh. Elohim is not a man with a body and Jesus a second God with a body.<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">I repent of my sins to the REAL Jesus. If you had heard me, and heard the Truth, you’d have already turned away from these lies. Your heart and mind are closed. YOU keep going back to uplifting this false deceptive message via an affable messenger vs accepting it for what it is. Lies.<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Just because your messenger is a nice guy and the topic is generally encouraging, doesn't make it TRUTH. <br /><br />By your logic....</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">What if Bernie Madoff hired some beautiful models to go around sharing the retirement benefits from investing in his retirement investment scheme. Would you say that one should be encouraged and excited by the hopeful news brought by the models about my financial future? NO. Why? because Madoff is a fraud and he set up his ponzie scheme to short you in the end.<br /><br />What if a Santa Claus company hired a bunch of criminal sex offenders as holiday costumed Santa Clauses? Would you let your child or wife go sit on Santa's lap and tell him their holiday wishes - to confess if they were bad or good? Is it wise to trust a strange man like that simply because he looks and sounds like Father Christmas and says lovely things like Ho Ho Ho and Merry Christmas? And because he sits on a beautiful chair on display for all? Certainly not!<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">And THIS is what your Joseph Smith has done to Christianity - no matter how you doll it up or how squeaky clean you make it look, Mormons spread a false gospel which does not have the power of salvation. </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">You need to leave this plastic reinvented version of Christianity and embrace the real JESUS.<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">But you won't. <br /><br />Why? <br /><br />Because you are <u><b>programmed</b></u> to deflect, defend, and embrace the deception. Just like those running a ponzie scheme who <i>have</i> to double down on their message vs come clean, the more they entrench themselves the worse it becomes for them in the end. <br /><br />You literally cannot process the criticism, learn from it, and make the cognitive leap to change your mind and heart. But you must. Jonathan is not spreading TRUTH or His Truth, or any KIND of Truth. He's spreading a false gospel condemned by the Apostle Paul. <br /><br />Don't give me platitudes - change your heart and mind based on what I've just shared with you.<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">I BEG YOU. </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">GET OUT! FLEE FROM IT as if your very soul depended on it. <br /><br />Because it does!</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">RF</span></p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-73635863451575155652023-03-31T11:28:00.005-04:002023-03-31T11:28:38.738-04:00Can Women be Pastors? Vol 1.<p><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"> </span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgKUil2OSda6VL1DMqlsJE-AM682Kb030tDhL8CdC-IskHmmoBTqOXJc7z2J47f2ShyCA0A3IbKG4UB2VXm8PRUfkiaz6a8dMpJEPrZ-mj_S7u0_923oJcQeEPnvzi_E-bDXGcsvTuDVHBSu9gxS_6WvQ_RsBwGeS0YYdJ2zxaJ1cA95-HooQ/s1098/Screen%20Shot%202023-03-31%20at%201.15.49%20PM.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><img border="0" data-original-height="942" data-original-width="1098" height="399" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgKUil2OSda6VL1DMqlsJE-AM682Kb030tDhL8CdC-IskHmmoBTqOXJc7z2J47f2ShyCA0A3IbKG4UB2VXm8PRUfkiaz6a8dMpJEPrZ-mj_S7u0_923oJcQeEPnvzi_E-bDXGcsvTuDVHBSu9gxS_6WvQ_RsBwGeS0YYdJ2zxaJ1cA95-HooQ/w464-h399/Screen%20Shot%202023-03-31%20at%201.15.49%20PM.png" width="464" /></span></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>PROPONENTS IN FAVOR OF THE POSTER</b></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px;">The Bible is plain as day stating for women to NOT be in authority over men in the church. Those of you speaking for women in leadership over men are just plain rebellious to the Holy Bible and should be embarrassed at your lack of understanding. </span><span style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px;">Seriously. You need to re-read your Holy Bible and do some real studying!</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, system-ui, .SFNSText-Regular, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 15px;"><br /></span></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><div dir="auto" style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px;">Women have a role in spreading God’s message of Salvation, but not as an actual position,</div><div dir="auto" style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px;">pastors/priests. Jesus, Himself, would have picked a woman as one of His Apostles if it was something He wanted to have happen. Men have specific roles in the Church and women have a role also, both important, but not the same.</div><br /><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>CHALLENGERS AGAINST THE POSTER</b></span><br /><br /><span style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px;">So say you. How can you forget about the women in the Bible who were appointed as leaders in the church -- in the Old AND New Testaments???? It's alright for you to have your "preference" of a man over a woman, but don't try and make your preference a matter of scripture, because it isn't!</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px;">I have a female pastor and she and those who serve with her absolutely lead us into the glorious Presence of God by the Holy Spirit every time we meet together!!! You just have no idea!!! And she is a great teacher of His Word!!! The people are growing and maturing and coming into the stature and fullness of the Lord Jesus Christ just as His Word call us to do! Her personal relationship with Jesus is very evident and not “religious”! I am SO BLESSED he led me to this particular fellowship group where He is given the highest honor and given the highest worship! He is pleased with it!! Glory to His Name!!</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px;">Eve came from Adam's Rib for a reason to be his equal not under him nor over him , and who wrote your Bibles or all good books for that matter , they were written by man , so of course women would have a limited role but God knew better that is why Mary birthed Jesus and all the other prophets were birthed by women not man</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px;">What about Deborah in the Old Testament? I think these verses are saying when women tell the men what to do (like wives telling the husbands) women speaking up spreading gossip and slander when they should be keeping quiet. I think there are several verses in the Bible such as in Judges where women were leaders . (Read the context I f what it was saying ) now if you are getting false doctrine or not getting transformed in a Godly way then yes you are being led wrong</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px;">Could it be that Jesus didn't pick a woman as a Disciple because they traveled together and that might have presented a problem to have a woman?? Your explanation does not hold water according to scripture. Men and women CAN operate in the same roles! And it's important that we understand that because the Word not only says they CAN, it says they DID!</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>RIVERFORUM</b></span></div><p></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">This topic is very challenging and many get emotionally charged about this sensitive issue. For those reasons, I am going to take this topic on slowly and deal with it in a couple of posts in serial. <br /><br />This first post will try and get to the bottom of what Paul is saying to the Corinthian church about this topic in 1 Corinthians 14.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">To begin with let's set the stage for when this letter was written and try to get some contextual understanding. In 1st century Judaism, women were not allowed into it to worship with the men but had to stay in the court of women at the temple or outside the synagogue. They listened in to the rabbis but learned from their husbands at home. <br /><br />After Jesus was crucified, the Bible teaches us that the the veil surrounding the Holiest of Holies (where high priest would commune with God before the Ark of the Covenant) was rent (torn) in twain (two) at the crucifixion, signifying to all people that the way to God was now open to all men and women alike, as demonstrated by Paul's letter to the Galatians 3:28 which states "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." The men in leadership in Corinth wanted to preserve that tradition of the women being silent.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">The big challenge in the new church at Corinth was that women were now allowed into the congregation and the church of Corinth was having problems keeping order in their services. (1 Cor. 14:40) They therefore came up with the rule cited by Paul in chapter 14 verses 34-35 to manage the problem along the lines of how they handled it in the temple and synagogues.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>Therefore, Chapter 14:33-38 can be read in two ways:</b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>1)</b> That Paul is speaking literally on principle saying women should be silent as suggested in the provocative meme posted above, or<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>2) </b>We can realize that verses 34-35 are a rhetorical quote, to which Paul is responding with sarcasm and admonition in verse 36. "What? Did the Word of God originate with you!?" <br /><br />That is to say he finds that the unique Corinthian teaching of verses 34 and 35 that he is quoting, both outlandish and arrogant, telling them to stop teaching that on Paul's authority. verse 39 he mentions "sisters" signifying that he does mean to allow women the space to prophesy in church, and thereby address the congregation.<br /><br />This interpretation is called a QRD or Quotation-Refutation-Device</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">Verse 36 provides the clarity needed. Paul is mocking and undermining that teaching he quotes in 34-35 telling the leaders in Corinth in verse 36 basically "Who are you to make such a rule as though the Word of God only came to you (men) alone?!"</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">(<i>As an aside for my cessationist friends, this passage also reminds us NOT to forbid speaking in tongues, simply that all means of address should be done in a fitting and orderly way as Paul laid out in the preceding verses.)</i></span></p></div></blockquote><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: large;">If verse 36 was not present, #1 would be correct. But verse 36 points us to #2.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">Then again, 1 Timothy 2 does point us back to the principles found in interpretation #1 leaving verse 36 challenged.<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>1 Timothy 2</b></span></p></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><i><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>11 </b>A woman (wife) should learn in quietness and full submission. </span></i></p></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><i><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>12 </b>I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man (over her husband); she must be quiet. </span></i></p></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><i><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>13 </b>For Adam was formed first, then Eve. </span></i></p></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><i><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>14 </b>And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. </span></i></p></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><i><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>15 </b>But women (she) will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.</span></i></p></div></blockquote><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">To get to the bottom of it all we really need to look at the original greek manuscripts and see where or whether there is punctuation because the </span><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: large;">literal </span><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: large;">greek renders the passage either of two ways providing very different results for 1 Cor 14:34-35:</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">"<i>hai gynaikes en tais ekklesias sigatosan ou gar epitrepitai autais lalein alla hypotassesthosan kathos kai o nomos legei..."</i></span></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"> "<i>hai (the) gynaikes (women) en (in) tais ekklesias (the churches) sigatosan (let them be silent) ou (not) gar (for) epitrepitai (it is allowed) autais (to them) lalein (to speak) alla (but) hypostassesthosan (to be in submission) kathos (as) kai (and) o (the) nomos (law) legei (says)..."</i></span></p></blockquote><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>EITHER A OR B IS CORRECT</b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">A. "The women in the churches, let them be silent. For it is (not) allowed for them to speak but to be in submission..."</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">B. "The women in the churches let them not be silent for it is allowed for them to speak but to be in submission..."</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">Same words, moving the punctuation gives us one scenario where women can't speak at all and a second scenario where they can - but in both scenarios under the authority of men. verse 39 agrees with rendering B because Paul says that sisters can prophesy but done decently and in order. <br /><br />Paul's common style is to make a thesis and then restate it after some explanatory content. <br /><br />Syntax A is also grammatically awkward, and Syntax B is more in keeping with Paul's typical semantic patterns.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /><a href="https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/1-corinthians-1434-35-marginal-comment-or-quotation-response-kirk/">https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/1-corinthians-1434-35-marginal-comment-or-quotation-response-kirk/</a></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></p></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: courier;">I took some time to compare the source manuscripts Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus to see where that would lead me.</span><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhcaXl3eikyarmH4EaEHnw7DCPA95fVl0fcz1GMLUwtU-oWcioVcdsfHlyXWpElUGpI9NVm2xGYIzl7hk-KMhsuvnu9sRxw441hvDVJITEqqTlU4muOQx_46Dh3ffIooLZeEHgG3gK-Pxr4oCj5bHuRVp5aWpNLpyzjWX1M03xbHy4R6dgiiA/s952/codex%20sinaiticus.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="952" data-original-width="684" height="371" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhcaXl3eikyarmH4EaEHnw7DCPA95fVl0fcz1GMLUwtU-oWcioVcdsfHlyXWpElUGpI9NVm2xGYIzl7hk-KMhsuvnu9sRxw441hvDVJITEqqTlU4muOQx_46Dh3ffIooLZeEHgG3gK-Pxr4oCj5bHuRVp5aWpNLpyzjWX1M03xbHy4R6dgiiA/w267-h371/codex%20sinaiticus.png" width="267" /></a>. <a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgCM0MMCt8lmwrnzQWxQCS9NkBc-wZr4RYoUffNPckVsWk5FqTo6O6e-cFLsyijo71kWVuQzRXLKN72otbZzTcm1UfzPKbL1WeczrgNaL4xi7Bw7vJ-J6F7k64SAgtfTmn9VN_IELhNowV3O4eJspEg8lPEJQ1eKj6UuAYaGT806YJjOepISA/s1092/vaticanus.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1092" data-original-width="602" height="525" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgCM0MMCt8lmwrnzQWxQCS9NkBc-wZr4RYoUffNPckVsWk5FqTo6O6e-cFLsyijo71kWVuQzRXLKN72otbZzTcm1UfzPKbL1WeczrgNaL4xi7Bw7vJ-J6F7k64SAgtfTmn9VN_IELhNowV3O4eJspEg8lPEJQ1eKj6UuAYaGT806YJjOepISA/w289-h525/vaticanus.png" width="289" /></a></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">Codex Sinaiticus Codex Vaticanus</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">The texts read as follows:</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>SINAITICUS (4th century)</b></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br />AI GYNAIKES EN TAIS EKKLASIAIS SIGATOSAN OU GAR EPITREPETAI AUTAIS LALEI ALLA HYPOTASSESTHOSAN KATHOS KAI O NOMOS LEGEI<br />EI DI TI MAHTHAIN EIN DE THELOUUSIN EN OIKO TOUS IDIOUS ANDROS EPEROTATOSAN AISCHRON GAR ESTIN GYNAIKI LALEIN EIN EKKLESIA<br /><br />E APH HYMON O LOGOS TOU THEO EXELTHEN EI EIS HYMAS MONOS KATENTESEN</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>VATICANUS (4th Century, slightly older)</b><br /></span><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br style="font-family: courier; font-size: large;" /><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: large;">AI GYNAIKES EN TAIS EKKLASIAIS SIGATOSAN OU GAR EPITREPETAI AUTAIS LALEI <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">EIN</span> ALLA HYPOTASSESTHOSAN KATHOS KAI O NOMOS LEGEI</span><br style="font-family: courier; font-size: large;" /><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: large;">EI DI TI <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">MATHAIN</span> THELOUUSIN EN OIKO TOUS IDIOUS ANDRAS EPEROTATOSAN<span style="background-color: #fcff01;">.</span> </span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: large;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: large;">AISCHRON GAR ESTIN GYNAIKI LALEIN EN EKKLESIA.</span><br style="font-family: courier; font-size: large;" /><br style="font-family: courier; font-size: large;" /><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: large;">36) E APH HYMON O LOGOS TOU THEO EXELTHEN EI EIS HYMAS MONO<span style="background-color: #fcff01;">U</span>S KATENTESEN</span></div><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div>Essentially both manuscripts come out the same. There is no period in the Greek between "silent" (</span><i style="font-family: courier; font-size: large;">sigatosan)</i><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"> and "not"(</span><i style="font-family: courier; font-size: large;">ou) </i><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">The way the work is written verse 34 and 35 are one stanza. Sinaiticus has a line break after "Ekklesia" and Vaticanus has a period/full stop after "(h)eperotatosan" and "Ekklesia" - both formats serve to separate v 36 as a distinct thought from 34 and 35.</span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;">This link below is a well researched article that tends challenges my Quotation-Response Rhetorical Device theory. The author has provided some solid research trying to show that QRD is not the rhetorical device in use here. I am not yet inclined to agree with him, but the case is somewhat compelling.</span><br /><br /><br /><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><a href="https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/1-corinthians-1434-35-marginal-comment-or-quotation-response-kirk/">https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/1-corinthians-1434-35-marginal-comment-or-quotation-response-kirk/</a></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"><b>Next Article we will deal with gender roles, spiritual authority, church offices, and address the comments of the proponents and challengers above.</b></span></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-76617848429427707232023-02-22T09:06:00.002-05:002023-02-23T22:23:48.573-05:00What is Truth?<p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"> </span></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><iframe allowfullscreen="" class="BLOG_video_class" height="403" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HaoySOGlZ_U" width="524" youtube-src-id="HaoySOGlZ_U"></iframe></span></div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /><span style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-size: 15px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br /></span></span><p></p><p><span style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-size: 15px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">“What is Truth? - Pontus Pilate (John 18:38)</span></span></p><div class="x11i5rnm xat24cr x1mh8g0r x1vvkbs xtlvy1s x126k92a" style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-size: 15px; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The Truth can be a hard thing to reconcile oneself to accept even when it is plainly seen. It can seem rigid, unyielding, narrow, sometimes even baffling. </span></div></div><div class="x11i5rnm xat24cr x1mh8g0r x1vvkbs xtlvy1s x126k92a" style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-size: 15px; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Sometimes, like Grandpa Joe (below), influencers in our lives would try to argue the case against Truth on our behalf, circumvent the rules, or even steal us away to safer places where they can continue their influence unobstructed. </span></div></div><div class="x11i5rnm xat24cr x1mh8g0r x1vvkbs xtlvy1s x126k92a" style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-size: 15px; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">When confronted with Truth, all of us struggle to some degree to reconcile our biases, our pre-formed notions, our traditions, and our deeply held beliefs. Sometimes they just don’t square up. And that’s a hard thing to accept. </span></div></div><div class="x11i5rnm xat24cr x1mh8g0r x1vvkbs xtlvy1s x126k92a" style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-size: 15px; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">But at the end of the day It’s about the humility with which we as an individuals approach Truth and its Author that makes all the difference. </span></div></div><div class="x11i5rnm xat24cr x1mh8g0r x1vvkbs xtlvy1s x126k92a" style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-size: 15px; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Because without humility, Truth seems an unfair taskmaster.</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">But WITH humility, comes the opportunity to walk in true liberty for body, mind, soul, and spirit. </span></div></div><div class="x11i5rnm xat24cr x1mh8g0r x1vvkbs xtlvy1s x126k92a" style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-size: 15px; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Are there things in your life that you believe are true which may not be so? Truth is objective, not subjective. If what you believe is objectively true, then it will survive scrutiny, challenge, and testing. </span></div></div><div class="x11i5rnm xat24cr x1mh8g0r x1vvkbs xtlvy1s x126k92a" style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-size: 15px; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">1. Have the courage to allow yourself to be challenged. </span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">2. For every proponent you read, study 3 critics.</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">3. Don’t give up just because it’s difficult work</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">4. Stay Humble</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">5. Be quick to learn, slow to speak. </span></div></div><div class="x11i5rnm xat24cr x1mh8g0r x1vvkbs xtlvy1s x126k92a" style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-size: 15px; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">“And Ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free.” - Jesus (John 8:32)</span></div></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-37502566573262798572023-02-21T22:26:00.008-05:002023-02-23T21:33:51.989-05:00WHAT DOES THE APOSTOLIC CHURCH TEACH?<p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p style="text-align: center;"></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiOQrmVKTEB57O7Iqbv4Rr4qsjz174hzygnHTQCeVaAoclQMSjR_vn0NvvsoZJHZvhZ_uGBsdEPqdpil8jbiGtcIgxxzzDS6pn_ORXSYrfUuO9n7T3_AgZuUJNme-3NFgKLvAlRD1JFxZc-4hWHfyjPP8EJLr-diWGagaiHl3V14GYqxlwUjA/s938/Screen%20Shot%202023-02-22%20at%203.25.42%20AM.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="938" data-original-width="894" height="529" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiOQrmVKTEB57O7Iqbv4Rr4qsjz174hzygnHTQCeVaAoclQMSjR_vn0NvvsoZJHZvhZ_uGBsdEPqdpil8jbiGtcIgxxzzDS6pn_ORXSYrfUuO9n7T3_AgZuUJNme-3NFgKLvAlRD1JFxZc-4hWHfyjPP8EJLr-diWGagaiHl3V14GYqxlwUjA/w505-h529/Screen%20Shot%202023-02-22%20at%203.25.42%20AM.png" width="505" /></a></div><br /><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span><p></p><h4 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">WHAT DOES THE APOSTOLIC CHURCH TEACH?</span></h4><div><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /><br /><b>THE GODHEAD</b><br /><br />Apostolic theology differs from that of other Pentecostals in that while we accept the full deity of Jesus Christ we do not believe in the Catholic model of a triune Godhead that arose in the 4th and 5th century A.D. of three distinct co-equal, co-powerful, and co-eternal persons, but rather believe that all the fullness of God resides in Jesus as described in (<b>Colossians 2:9, Deut 6:4, and Isaiah 9:6; John 10:30; John 14:5-15) </b>and that father, son, holy spirit are titles used to describe God's relation to us - not a declaration of a triune cosmic being.<br /></span><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br />God relates himself to humanity as our Father within creation, he manifests himself in human form as the Son by virtue of his <span class="s1">incarnation</span></span><span style="font-family: helvetica;"> as Jesus Christ <b>1 Timothy 3:16</b></span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">, and he is the Holy Spirit <b>(John 4:24</b>) </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">by way of his activity in the life of the believer. We do not ascribe to the use of the unbiblical terms "persons", "personas" or "trinity", or "triune", rather like our Jewish forbears we affirm that the Bible emphasizes continually that God is One (<b>Deut 6:4), </b>that<b> </b>Jesus Christ is express image of his person (singular)(<b>Hebrews 1:3) </b>and the the Holy Spirit is the power of the risen Christ come to indwell the believer. (<b>John 14:8-21 and John 17:17-24</b>)</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>THE DOCTRINE OF BAPTISMS</b><br /><br />As Apostolic believers, we hold that the <u>fulfillment </u>of what Jesus told Nicodemus about how he must born again of water and of spirit to see the Kingdom of God(<b>John 3:3-5</b>), is what John the Baptist was referring to in <b>Matthew 3:11</b> <br /><br />"</span><i><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-align: justify;">I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and </span><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-align: justify;">with</span></span></i><span style="background-color: white; text-align: justify;"><i style="color: #001320; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"> fire</span></i><span><span face="Roboto, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="color: #001320;">:" </span><br /><br /></span></span></p><div style="text-align: left;"><span><span face="Roboto, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="color: #001320; font-size: 16px;">the same act that </span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #001320; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 16px; text-align: left;">Jesus was referring to in <b>Acts 1:5</b> when he said to his disciples before the </span><span style="background-color: transparent; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">ascension</span></span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: #001320; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 16px; text-align: left;">:</span></span></div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br />"</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-align: justify;"><i><span style="font-family: helvetica;">For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."</span></i></span><p></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-align: justify;"><i><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">This was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost in <b>Acts 2:4</b> when they were baptized in the Spirit just as John and Jesus said would happen.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">And then Peter, to whom Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven, reaffirms this in the first sermon ever preached <b>Acts 2:37-41</b><br /><br /><i>"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"</i><br /><br />Every subsequent time we see a major conversion we see water and spirit working together</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Acts 8, Acts 10, Acts 19.</b><br /><br />This is what the Bible refers to as the "doctrine of baptisms" (Heb 6:2). Note the word "doctrine" is singular as in "one teaching" and "baptisms" is plural signifying more than one sort of baptism. <br /><br /><b>1 John 5:7-9 (NIV)</b> explains how the Spirit & Water work together with the Blood of Jesus Christ as a testimony before God.<br /><br /><i><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-indent: 25px;">"This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. </span><span class="reftext" style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 11px; font-weight: 700; line-height: 15px; margin-left: 1px; margin-right: 2px; text-indent: 25px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a href="http://biblehub.com/1_john/5-7.htm" style="color: #008ae6; text-decoration-line: none;">7</a></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-indent: 25px;">For there are three that testify: </span><span class="reftext" style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 11px; font-weight: 700; line-height: 15px; margin-left: 1px; margin-right: 2px; text-indent: 25px; vertical-align: text-top;"><a href="http://biblehub.com/1_john/5-8.htm" style="color: #008ae6; text-decoration-line: none;">8</a></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-indent: 25px;">the </span><span class="nivfootnote" style="background-color: white; color: #0066aa; font-size: 12px; font-weight: 700; margin-left: 1px; margin-right: 1px; text-indent: 25px;"><sup><a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/1_john/5.htm#footnotes" style="color: #008ae6; text-decoration-line: none;" title="Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)">a</a></sup></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-indent: 25px;"> Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."</span></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>WATER BAPTISM</b><br /><br />Because all of the recorded instances of Christian baptism in the New Testament were performed, and referred to as using only the name of the Lord Jesus (Christ), </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">we practice water baptism of a repentant believer by invoking the name of Jesus Christ (<b>Acts 2:37-39</b>), rather than using the trinitarian formula or using sprinkling methods created by the Catholic Church and other denominational Christian churches. Why? Because...</span><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /><br />In <b>Colossians 3:17</b>, Paul instructs us:<br /></span><br /><i><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-align: justify;">"And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, </span><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-align: justify;">do</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-align: justify;"> all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."<br /></span></span></i><br /><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Water Baptism is no exception to this principle. </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Jesus is the only name given to mankind to call upon which holds the power of salvation.<br /></span><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; text-align: justify;"><i>"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (<b>Acts 4:12)<br /></b></i></span></span><br /><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>MATTHEW 28:19</b><br />When baptizing someone we do not quote Matthew 28:19 as is the Catholic and trinitarian practice by saying "</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><i>in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" </i>for more than a few reasons. <br /></span></span><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><ol style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The Apostles did not use the tripartite formula because they understood grammar. The word "name" is singular and the list that follows is a series, each prepositional clause referring back to the direct object of "name". Read correctly for grammar, Jesus is illustrating that there is ONE name of the father, of the son and of the Holy Spirit. The Apostles understood that the name was the one speaking to them - Jesus! The acts of the apostles confirms this understanding because this is how they baptized, Peter stating explicitly that we should be "<i>baptized in the name (singular) of Jesus Christ</i>". They did not disobey Jesus. Those who use the formula are repeating the words, not fulfilling them.<br /><br /></span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The phrase has been used for centuries to replace the glorious NAME of Jesus Christ. Recently the Catholic church has defrocked a priest and negated 20 years of his formulaic baptisms because he said "We baptise you..." vs. "I baptise you...". While this seems to be much ado about nothing, baptism is a binding covenant between the believer and our Lord. Removing his name negates the entire purpose of the rite.<br /><br /></span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Concerning the name of Jesus, Isaiah 9:6 gives us some further insight into the confusion about Jesus' name. <br /><br />"<i>For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."<br /></i><br />Note that the name of the son shall be called "Wonderful, Counsellor" - titles typically attributed to the Holy Spirit; and the Mighty God, The Everlasting Father - titles reserved for what we call "the father", and "prince of peace" - a title reserved for Jesus as the son of a king. The name of the son, is the name of the ONE God who is known by other titles according to his manifestation. This shows how Jesus is God's name, regardless of what role he assumes. <br /><br /></span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Appealing to simple logic: I am a father of four sons. I am a son to my father, I was a husband when I was married, and in professional activity I am a businessman, I am also a hobby musician. If I were to write you a check for $1000 and not sign it, the following exchange might ensue:<br /><br /><b>Banker:</b> "I'm sorry sir, I cannot cash this. It's not signed. In whose name is the check written?"<br /><br /><b>Joe:</b> "Simple! This check is made by the father, the son, the businessman, the husband, and the hobby musician of course. You know him, he comes in here all the time."<br /><br /><b>Banker:</b> "So five persons then? I will need them each to sign their names for the withdrawal"<br /><br /><b>Joe:</b> "No, no. Just ONE person. The same person is a father, a son, a businessman, a husband, and a musician"</span></li></ol><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"> <b> Banker:</b> "I get it, so those are his roles, or titles? I need his NAME for it to be a valid <span> </span><span> </span>transaction"<br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"> <b>Joe:</b> "Yes, it's one person. Many roles. One Name. His name is 'John Smith'"<br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"> <b>Banker: </b>"Excellent, just have the name of "John Smith" signed on your check and we will <span> </span><span> </span><span> </span>associate the transaction with His account. Without that, we cannot make the transaction <span> </span><span> </span><span> </span>because you haven't actually identified who it is you are dealing with. Does that make <span> </span><span> </span><span> </span><span> </span>sense?<br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"> <b>Joe:</b> It does now!<br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></div><b>HOW WE WATER BAPTIZE AND WHY</b></span><br /><br /><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Water Baptism is done, typically by a church leader but not always, by full immersion of the candidate in water. We do not use sprinkling, or anointing because the bible teaches that we are to be "buried with him in baptism" and our examples are of those going "<i>down into the water</i>" (<b>Acts 8:38</b>) Through baptism the believer identifies with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection by enacting the similitude of passing beneath and the rising out of the water. (<b>Col 2:10-15</b></span><b style="font-family: helvetica;">, Romans 6.) </b><span style="font-family: helvetica;">At the same time, the church confirms the application of the remission of his or her sins due to the pledge of a clean conscience toward Christ. (</span><b style="font-family: helvetica;">Acts 2:38, John 20:23, 1 Peter 3:21</b><span style="font-family: helvetica;">)</span><b style="font-family: helvetica;"> <br /></b><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br />By this practice, w</span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">e quite intentionally set ourselves apart from other church movements to follow more closely the prescriptions of Jesus and His apostles as written. This is why we choose to use the term "Apostolic", evoking <b>Acts 2:42 </b>which says of the very first converts to Christ on the day of Pentecost that: </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">"...<span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-align: justify;"><i>they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.</i>" This is the primary goal of the Apostolic Pentecostal Christian - to follow as closely as possible to the teachings of Jesus and of his direct followers whom he chose to found his church.</span></span><p></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-align: justify;"><br /></span></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-align: justify;"><b>SPIRIT BAPTISM</b><br /><br /></span></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #001320; font-size: 16px; text-align: justify;">Apostolic Pentecostals share doctrinal beliefs with many other pentecostal traditions who teach the essentiality of this experience for the believer and that the initial manifestation that someone has been filled with the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost is that they begin to speak in tongues. This is an almost uniform experience that aligns with <b>Acts 2, 8, 10, 19</b>, was predicted by Jesus and John the Baptist, in the Gospels, by OT prophets, and then later expounded upon in the Epistles.<br /><br /><b>SPIRITUAL GIFTS</b><br /><br />If God wills, the Spirit Filled Christian is then often empowered go on in their spiritual life to operate, in any of the various spiritual gifts referenced in <b>1 Corinthians 14</b> such as speaking in tongues, prophesy, working of miracles, etc. Most all who abide in their faith will retain the ability to pray and worship in tongues after their initial experience. Jesus told his disciples to wait for the baptism of the Holy Spirit adding that they would be "endued with power (dynamos) from on high" (<b>Luke 24:49</b>). This teaching is not uniquely Apostolic, as it is shared among most pentecostals at large with some variance, say with the various Charismatic movements, on the administration and operation of the gifts. Pentecostal services tend to be more orderly than the Charismatic which may be quite unstructured.<br /><br /><br /><b>SALVATION</b><br /><br />On the day of Pentecost, when those gathered believed Peter about Jesus Christ, they were pricked in their heart and asked him and his brothers what they should do next. Peter responded by saying:<br /><br /></span></span><span style="font-family: helvetica; text-align: justify;"><i>"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"</i><br /><br />3000 people joined them that day following these instructions. All subsequent conversions recorded in the New Testament follow the same pattern.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; text-align: justify;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; text-align: justify;">Therefore, in these ways the message of the Apostolic church is to declare the same directions today that Peter gave the church on the day of its birth. <br /><br />In this way, Apostolic Christianity can be said to be the most primitive and oldest form of Christianity as its doctrine comes directly from the Bible and with no additional doctrinal "isms" or sectarian teachings that alter what was designed by Jesus and His Apostles. </span><span style="font-family: helvetica; text-align: justify;"><br /><br />So what requirements are there to being baptized? <br /><br />Only that you must believe with all your heart that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died for your sins, and was resurrected to offer the promise of eternal life through faith in His name. <b>(Acts 8:37) </b><br /><br />The Bible teaches that is by our faith in God's grace that we will be saved. "Grace" means "unmerited favor". Therefore it is not by our deeds but in our undeservedly receiving God's favor for accepting Jesus and turning away from our sin that saves.<br /><br />He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, he that believes not stands condemned <b>(Mark 16)</b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; text-align: justify;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">-----------</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br />HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE CONSIDERED APOSTOLIC COMPARED TO OTHER GROUPS?<br /></span></p><ul><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">2,200,000,000 - Worldwide Christians</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">1,300,000,000 - Worldwide Catholics</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">900,000,000 - Worldwide Protestants</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>644,000,000 - Worldwide Pentecostals</b> <span style="font-size: x-small;">(</span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">The World Christian Encyclopedia, 3rd edition (2020) </span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>500,000,000 - Have had a Pentecostal Experience</b></span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">300,000,000 - Worldwide Orthodox</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">110,000,000 - Worldwide Reformed</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">110,000,000 - Worldwide Anglican</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">100,000,000 - Worldwide Baptist</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">70,000,0000 - 90,000,000 Worldwide Lutheran</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>68,000,000 - USA Pentecostals</b></span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">60,000,000 - 80,000,000 Worldwide Reformed Calvinist</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">60,000,000 - 80,000,000 Worldwide Methodist</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>35,000,000 - 50,000,000 - Worldwide Apostolic Pentecostals</b></span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">22,300,000 - Worldwide Adventism</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">16,500,000 - Worldwide Mormons</span></li></ul><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Mainstream Apostolic denominations include the United Pentecostal Church International, the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, and the Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ. While these three are the largest such groups, there are many others as there are over 80 Apostolic denominations as well as many independent congregations.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></div><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; text-align: justify;"><br /><br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /><br /><br /></span></p></div><p></p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-32750009909032477982023-02-19T16:44:00.006-05:002023-02-20T14:18:41.399-05:00Filling in the potholes along the Roman Road (REVISED)<p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhfobNhp1sQ62SZjEL7paOHeyodjbnNJAiphVIu7Ib9SPvhvCRsIJPET4x-WvhlKjQiZxG3BqsHXPLiVltPY2rWOtHvslnWCD51q39LXuIxLsEps3ACT151tNIY3mRdhX5xOHLU1mLWpWWG5bg4b8A46zWBWnLASAombz8a0sBHhJnYjkS56Q" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="984" data-original-width="1242" height="346" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhfobNhp1sQ62SZjEL7paOHeyodjbnNJAiphVIu7Ib9SPvhvCRsIJPET4x-WvhlKjQiZxG3BqsHXPLiVltPY2rWOtHvslnWCD51q39LXuIxLsEps3ACT151tNIY3mRdhX5xOHLU1mLWpWWG5bg4b8A46zWBWnLASAombz8a0sBHhJnYjkS56Q=w438-h346" width="438" /></a></div><div style="text-align: center;"><br /></div><div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>JOHN MACARTHUR</b><br /><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;">"True salvation does not come from water baptism...(it) comes <br />only by faith in Christ, which results in obedience from the heart" - John MacArthur</span></div><div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>VS. THE BIBLE</b></span></div><div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;">"He that believes and is baptized shall be saved" - (Mark 16:16)</span></div><div style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div style="text-align: center;"></div><p></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;">"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us <br />(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, <br />but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) <br />by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Peter 3:21)</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>OBSERVER 1</b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">What scriptures supports this Statement? </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>RIVERFORUM</b><br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">This man is flat wrong and a false teacher that denies the scriptures which literally say the exact opposite. refer to these for the truth:</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Mark 16:16; Colossians 2:9-13; 1 Peter 3:20-22; Acts 2:37; John 3:5; Acts 10, Acts 19…many more</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>OBSERVER 2</b><br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">how exactly is this false? Salvation comes by faith and faith alone. Christianity is not a workspace religion. You can’t do anything to earn your way into heaven.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>RIVERFORUM</b><br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">If you open your Bible and truly read all the scriptures I provided, they already hold the answer to your questions.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">For the sake of clarity, Water </span><span style="font-family: courier;">Baptism is not a “work” or something one does to merit heaven. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. <br /></span><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />Just as the Jew was circumcised to be part of God’s Covenant, likewise Christians are baptised. <br /><br />Colossians 2:8-15 (cited above) lays this all out quite plainly. It explains how Baptism in Jesus Name IS an expression of Faith. Even MacArthur above contradicts himself when he says that faith produces obedience. We must OBEY the gospel! (<i>Romans 10:16, 2 Thess 1:8, 1 Pet 4:17</i>)<br /><br />God actually remits our sins in baptism (Acts 2:37) upon our confession of faith. This is where the transaction takes place - by faith and by the operation of God. This is speaking only of water baptism.<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Holy Spirit baptism is another subject, yet inextricable from the conversion experience as well. In this act God indwells or fills the believer.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /><b>WHAT IS A "WORK"?</b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">The best way to square up James 2:14-26 and Romans 10:9-13 is really to understand better what we mean when we say something is a “work”.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">A “work” does not mean “any action whatsoever”. A “work” is something that is done specifically to produce merit or favor honor, worthiness, prestige, or achievement - in this case to earn Salvation. </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">If baptism is a “work” then so must be confession! For confession is something you DO as an expression of faith, is it not?</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Consider that James also said “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26). He is saying that it's not enough to internally agree or believe but we must MANIFEST that faith for it to be actuated.<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">If one really carefully reads Romans 10, then does the same with James 2 one might be a bit confused UNTIL one reads Colossians 2 which squares it all up neatly.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">This is why I cite Colossians 2 because it does the summary work of harmonizing Romans 10 and James 2. </span><span style="font-family: courier;">One has to take the Bible as a whole in harmony. </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Again, Baptisms and confessions - these things are not “works” in the sense that is being conflated upon them by modern Christians who cling to misunderstanding. <br /><br /></span></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Being baptized is an ACT of confession!</span></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Receiving his Spirit is to receive the gift of the deposit of God's spirit in us. </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Neither of these speak to the merit of the candidate. </span> </li></ul><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>LET'S JUST BE REALLY CLEAR ABOUT THE "ROMAN ROAD"</b><br /><br />Let's start by reading Romans 10:8-13.<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>8 </b>But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>9 </b>That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>10 </b>For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>11 </b>For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>12 </b>For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>13 </b>For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Typically associated is this passage in Ephesians 2:8-10<br /><i><br /></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>8</b>For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>9 </b>Not of works, lest any man should boast.</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>10 </b>For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. </span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>LET'S INVESTIGATE</b><br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">First of all. Who is the author of both Romans, Ephesians, and Colossians? The Apostle Paul right? So l</span><span style="font-family: courier;">et us not forget that the same Paul who did the works of evangelism in Acts 19 also wrote about them in the epistles to Rome, Ephesus, Colosse, etc. <b> </b></span><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Same author.</b> </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">So it is PAUL who goes to Ephesus </span><span style="font-family: courier;">in Acts 19:1-7</span><span style="font-family: courier;">. And it is PAUL yet again who writes to them to reflect on this experience in Ephesians 1:12-14 which expounds on their conversion by saying:</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>"(v 13) In whom (Jesus) you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also that after you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (v14) which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchase possession…” (Ephesians 1:12-14)</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />The writing in Ephesians references heavily the experience of Acts 19. When Paul says in Ephesians 1:13 that they were "sealed with that holy spirit of promise", he is not speaking of some nebulous series of events over time. He is referring specifically to when HE went to Ephesus and preached Jesus to them in Acts 19 and they were filled with the Holy Spirit. <br /><br />Ephesians 1 is not a blanket statement. It is a specific reference to a documented event!<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Paul explains herein that the baptism of the Holy Spirit the Ephesian believers received in Acts 19:6 was in fact God making a deposit of His spirit in them. It is described by Paul in financial terms as being like “earnest” money - a good faith deposit that he will come back and claim what he has bought. </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">One should not read Ephesians 2:8-9 which says "<i>For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.</i>" and NEGLECT the chapter preceding cited above (Eph 1:12-14) which describes the very acts of faith themselves which they experienced!<br /><br />For, receiving the holy spirit is a GIFT from GOD received through the operation of FAITH. </span><span style="font-family: courier;">None of these transactions between God and the believer during baptism(s) constitute(s) a "work" or an act of merit.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>BY THE SAME TOKEN</b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">One should not read Romans 10:8-13, also written by PAUL and neglect the rest of his letter. Specifically not what he says 4 chapters prior in Chapter 6 regarding baptism! (Romans 6:3-9)</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><h2 style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-size: small;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;">3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?<br /></span></i><i><span style="font-family: courier;">4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.<br /></span></i><i><span style="font-family: courier;">5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:<br /></span></i><i><span style="font-family: courier;">6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.<br /></span></i><i><span style="font-family: courier;">7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.<br /></span></i><i><span style="font-family: courier;">8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:<br /></span></i><i><span style="font-family: courier;">9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.</span></i></span></span></h2><div><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-size: small;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></i></span></span></div><div><span style="font-weight: normal;"><span style="font-size: small;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></i></span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;">So by the time we get to Romans chapter 10, Paul has already established the principle of baptism in chapter 6 so that in the mind of the Roman reader his understanding is cumulative and includes what is written here about baptism in chapter 6. SO, when we read Romans 10, we must KEEP Romans 6 in the back of our minds.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;">AND WE MUST also keep Acts 19 there MOST firmly because Paul's evangelism shows how he enacted this theology - how he put it into action at the very start of that church.<br /><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;">PAUL'S LETTER TO THE COLOSSIANS ECHOES ROMANS 6 BUT GOES DEEPER<br /><br /></span></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>8 </b>Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>9 </b>For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>10 </b>And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>11 </b>In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>12 </b>Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>13 </b>And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>14 </b>Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>15 </b>And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.</span></i></p></div><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Notably, when it came time to preach conversion to the Ephesians in Acts 19, Paul's message aligned 100% with Peter's exhortation in Acts 2. His later expositions in Romans, Colossians, Ephesians provide a deeper cumulative theology about the practice. </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>A BIT ABOUT PETER</b><br /><br />Peter laid out very plainly the conversion process in Acts 2:37-39 and this was followed by the apostles (like Paul) and their immediate followers:</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ol><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Believe in Jesus Christ </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Repent of your sins, </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Be water baptized in Jesus Name for the remission of your sins</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Seek and Receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Abide in Him (v 46)</span></li></ol><div><span style="font-family: courier;">In Peter's First Epistle to the church (1 Pet 3:21), he explained that baptism saves us because it demonstrates our good conscience toward God, therefore associating us by faith with the resurrection of Jesus Christ.</span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;">JESUS himself said, <span style="text-align: center;">"<i>He that believes and is baptized shall be saved</i>" - (Mark 16:16)</span></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;">Peter laid this all out for us in Acts 2 and then said "<i>Save yourselves from this untoward generation</i>"(v 40) - straightaway 3000 people DID! (v 41) He also said that the promise (of salvation) is for "<i>even as many as the Lord our God shall call</i>".(v 39)</span></div><div><br /></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />This means you and I today! <br /><br /><b>POST SCRIPT CHALLENGE</b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">The thief on the cross was not baptized and yet Jesus told him he’d be with Him that day in paradise. So I don’t agree that it’s “believe and be baptized “ but instead “believe and repent “.<br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">But even so, the ability to repent and even believe are a work of the Holy Spirit, not man. Our being saved by God is not a dual effort between us and God. It is completely monorgistic. It’s Gods grace alone that saves. And that was decided in infinity past. Thus it is by grace alone.<br /><br /><br /><b>RIVERFORUM</b><br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">The thief on the cross died before Jesus died was resurrected and ascended. He was still under Jewish law. Not the New Covenant. As the giver of the law, Jesus had the authority to forgive him just as he did the paralytic man. Jesus himself said “Believe and is baptized” Mark 16:16. Peter said it again Acts 2:37, Paul practiced it in Acts 19 and confirmed the teaching in Romans 6 and Colossians 2. Peter reaffirms it in 1 Peter 3.<br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Your argument is not with me, it is with the scripture itself. It is not “believe and repent” alone. What does Peter , who was given the keys to the kingdom, say to believers asking “what shall we do? His answer: “Repent and be baptised everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” This is how we are to apply our faith in conversion to Christ.<br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">God’s grace does not save the unrepentant or the one who denies christ or even one who blasphemes the holy spirit (Matthew 12:22-32). <br /><br />God is not willing for anyone to perish but for all to have eternal life, correct? Well, not all do! Even at the white throne judgment we see Jesus separating sheep and goats. Also Hebrews 6:6 describes backsliders who cannot be restored to grace. <br /><br />Yes grace alone saves, but grace is resistible! And THIS is decided in infinity past. Else Satan would not exist. Satan abandoned his first estate and resisted the grace of God and so lost his ability to come before God. In fact, he would still muscle his way into heaven to accuse (Book of Job) until Michael overcame him by the power of the blood of Jesus and was able to keep him out of heaven for good. (Rev 12:11)</p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">We also have examples of Cain, Judas Iscariot as well. These walked with God and knew God and believed God yet did not see heaven because they did what they thought was right in their own eyes (offering vegetables, turning in Jesus) vs, what God asked of them. Paul was told by Jesus "it is hard to kick agains the goads" (Acts 26:14) exposing that he was resisting Jesus. In fact many contemporaries of Jesus looked him square in the face and denied him!<br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">I submit that, unlike the Apostle Paul who consented to the death of Stephen and later repented, John Calvin himself did not see heaven for the evidence of him dying unrepentant of the murder of Michael Servetus which he caused.<br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Peter went on to say “Save yourselves from this untoward generation”. We most definitely have a role in our own salvation - and that is to choose to love and serve him as our Lord and Saviour. We are exhorted by Paul to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. (Phillipians 2:12-13)<br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Again try not to get caught up in the trap of “what seems right to me is…” or even “what I believe is…”. Rather, what does the Bible itself say and then we need to align to it, not twist the Word to make it say what we want it to or what aligns with our doctrines, however inconvenient.</p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">May the Bible itself persuade us of its OWN message.</p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b>POST POST SCRIPT COUNTERPOINT</b></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">OK. I think I found the reason for our disagreement here. You say that Grace is resistible. I believe that Grace is irresistible. I believe that when God gives his grace to us, that is the giving of the holy spirit that changes our hearts so that we can’t help but seek Jesus.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p></span></div><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>RIVERFORUM</b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">I don't simply "say" grace is resistible. I provide scriptural examples which demonstrate that this is what the Bible teaches. These aren't MY ideas. I may WISH it was the way you say it is, for more people might be saved. Yet it is not. The way is narrow and the path is straight. <br /><br />I only share what the Bible itself teaches. If you disagree, it is not with me. It is with the Word. And that you must reconcile with God, not with me. For if you believe another doctrine or teaching that is different than what Jesus and his Apostles taught us, then you are effectively saying that the Bible really isn't our standard as Paul says it is in 2 Timothy 3:16. "<i>All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:</i>"<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">What scriptures do you have that support your position that grace irresistible? And if it is, are we not simply mindless robots then drawn like unwitting moths to his flame? How does that demonstrate the love of GOD if he <u>controls</u> us with his love? That's tyranny!</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Again, we need to align our beliefs to what the Bible teaches, not what seems right to us. <br /><br />Please provide scripture which supports your position. I have shown examples to the contrary. I do agree that the Bible teaches that God pursues those who turn to him and draws them unto Him. And the sheep who hear his voice do follow. BUT that is the exception. The norm is that people resist that call. Again like Saul kicking against the goads.</span><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="font-family: courier;"> </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"><br /></span></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Paul was resisted by Alexander the coppersmith as well and at one point the entire city of Ephesus wanted to kill him for his preaching on Jesus that challenged their idolatry. If these weren’t resisting God’s grace, what then were they doing!?</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">The great irony is that most of those who cling to the doctrine of irresistible grace of God’s Spirit are also those who deny the baptism of the Holy Ghost and spiritual gifts. So, while they claim to follow irresistible grace they themselves have resisted grace by putting the stops on what they will allow or accept from God’s spirit proving yet again that cessationism quenches the Spirit as it denies God’s real and present activity in our lives.</span></p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-1888277299140622502023-02-12T14:23:00.004-05:002023-02-12T14:27:39.940-05:007 points Against a Counter-Arminian<p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgT-mKkboPBHxCAC2NKq4ctQxDm20KNqiceHUExxCREHbq7ryEkRrcppFfRy0EGQNEZ79PbDT95gSZkCqit0sXg82vDGBCZjIfIkV7KKojC0CU81mE1FfazCNruNgtrFqvYX6zXlWOzuCh4FAHcRqNbeIlw_6Eh4xis4jgaVbFTL4nwMBBHBQ" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="992" data-original-width="1232" height="383" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgT-mKkboPBHxCAC2NKq4ctQxDm20KNqiceHUExxCREHbq7ryEkRrcppFfRy0EGQNEZ79PbDT95gSZkCqit0sXg82vDGBCZjIfIkV7KKojC0CU81mE1FfazCNruNgtrFqvYX6zXlWOzuCh4FAHcRqNbeIlw_6Eh4xis4jgaVbFTL4nwMBBHBQ=w475-h383" width="475" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><p></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">No reasonable rejector of Calvinism believes </span><span style="font-family: courier;">that because God gives man the sovereignty of choice, that God has folded his arms and ceases to influence man’s life or command His angels concerning him.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">This man is presenting a foolish straw-man argument stemming from false reductionism of the Arminian position. </span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">HOWEVER</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">For clarity, while instructing against the errors of Calvinism, I do <i>not</i> speak or teach as an Arminian. In fact I hold that both Calvinism <i>and</i> Arminianism are contrary <i>perspectives</i> about the Doctrine of God, particularly around questions of agency, sovereignty, grace, and eternal security. <br /><br />As a Theologian, I am not interested in forming a perspective, or in taking up with either camp. I am only concerned, as all readers should be, with discovering what the Bible itself has to teach us on certain subjects. </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">The thesis Phil Johnson puts before us is this:</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>THESIS</b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>"If God has already done everything to save the lost, why pray for them? </b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>RESPONSE</b><br />Let's examine what the Bible itself teaches on the subject in seven targeted points:</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ol style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">The Spirit always draws the hungry, <b>His sheep know His voice</b>. The Spirit of Truth has come to guide us into all Truth. (John 16:13) <br /><br /></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Not all of His followers are sheep</b>. Some are Goats. (Matt 25:32)<br /><br /></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">God’s will is that none perish outside of His covenant. (2 Peter 3). <b>Yet many do perish outside of God's will</b>.<br /><br /></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">It is the <b>Goodness of God that leads a man</b> to repentance. (Romans 2:4)<br /><br /></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Romans 10:14-17 declares that Faith comes by hearing but it ALSO says in verse 16 that they have not all obeyed the Gospel The Key word here is “obey”. <b>We must <u><i>obey</i></u> the Gospel of Christ. </b>To obey, is to choose to follow or to willingly submit to another's authority.<br /><br /></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Hebrews 6:4-8 Demonstrates clearly how <b>salvation can become forfeit.</b> (v 6) <br /><br /></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">This is why we are told, in fact warned, that <b>we must abide in Him</b> or else he is cast forth as a withered branch (John 15:6-7). Note the word “IF” (v 7). If we do… then X. If we do not…then Y.</span></li></ol><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>SUMMARY</b><br /></span><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>"If, according to Calvin, both grace and damnation are irresistible and foreordained? Why do YOU pray for those who have no agency in the matter?"</b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Grace is resistible. So is Damnation.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">read more <a href="https://riverforum.blogspot.com/2022/11/on-predestination.html" rel="nofollow">On Predestination</a></span></p></div><p></p></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-73877718594691136162023-02-09T16:53:00.011-05:002023-02-10T03:18:01.999-05:00Is Regeneration a Product of Faith or an Antecedent?<p><span style="font-family: courier;"> </span></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjMFymLZq3YDFUhQtJWzpUmGgXkNnxViG-3xlVLuw97pCdsFgNvjPwEC9IQb-YJz40R6pFPibJpx138_-9JiCAg08iC6nMe9BWM4mdqB4cTvj0Qg9yj4coW3JCB7Q-2-RldKnoFQW1iJg1Rn3Au6WI5I8mPNcU4xu_gjv_RRUNzrKDxENf72A/s772/calviin.jpeg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="772" data-original-width="598" height="526" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjMFymLZq3YDFUhQtJWzpUmGgXkNnxViG-3xlVLuw97pCdsFgNvjPwEC9IQb-YJz40R6pFPibJpx138_-9JiCAg08iC6nMe9BWM4mdqB4cTvj0Qg9yj4coW3JCB7Q-2-RldKnoFQW1iJg1Rn3Au6WI5I8mPNcU4xu_gjv_RRUNzrKDxENf72A/w408-h526/calviin.jpeg" width="408" /></a></div><p></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>THESIS HOLDER:</b><br /><b>Repentance does not save anyone. It follows regeneration. It is the natural outflow from believers daily. It is this present reality of sin still in the Christian’s life that causes him/her to long for the Lord’s return.</b></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>CHALLENGER:</b><br />how you come to that conclusion? Doesn't The Bible tell us to repent and be baptized and we shall be saved?</span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b><span style="font-family: courier;">THESIS HOLDER'S RESPONSE:</span></b></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b><span style="font-family: courier;">The will must first be regenerated in order to believe. Our belief does not begin the process. If so, you have saved yourself. The Holy Spirit regenerates the dead sinner. Faith is a gift. It is not of works. As Jesus said, flesh and blood did not reveal this to you.</span></b></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"> </span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b><span style="font-family: courier;">RIVERFORUM:</span></b></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">While it is true that we are transformed by the renewing of our minds:<br /></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><i><span style="font-family: courier;">And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:2)</span></i></li></ul><p></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">To be risen with Christ <span class="s1" style="text-decoration-line: underline;">is</span> to be dead in our sins. To be dead in our sins <span class="s1" style="text-decoration-line: underline;">is</span> to have repented and have been “<i>buried with Him in baptism</i>”</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Col 2:12)</i></span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Colossians 2:8-15 lays this out quite plainly especially verses 11:15. It speaks of the mechanics of how baptism(s) is part of the regeneration process.</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. </i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>9 For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.</i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: </i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: </i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. </i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; </i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; </i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (Colossians 2:8-15)</i></span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />"<i>Buried with him</i>" (water). "<i>Risen with him</i>" (spirit). And it goes on to describe the remission process that Peter described at first in Acts 2:38:<br /></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)</i></span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p4" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 2px; min-height: 19px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b></b><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Notice how the text says “<i>for the remission of sins</i>”. <br /><br />It does NOT say “<i>because of the remission of sins</i>” or even,<br />“<i>because your sins are forgiven</i>” but it says: </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">“<i>FOR the remission of sins</i>" (emphasis added), which points directly back to the word “<i>baptised</i>” which renders the meaning “<i>for the purpose of</i>”.<br /><br />This is borne out by Colossians 2 (above) and 1 Peter 3:21<br /></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 3:21</i></span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />being first introduced in Mark 16.</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16)</i></span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>THESIS POINT:</b> "<b>(Y)our belief does not begin the process. If so, you have saved yourself."</b><br /><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Interestingly, Peter did tell those present on the day of Pentecost "Save yourselves from this untoward generation" (Acts 2:40) implying that we actually do have to take initiative is not to impute a system of "works" or "merits" on the believer. Is it unreasonable for God to require us to BE proactive when faced with the Truth?</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">On the day of Pentecost, those gathered that believed Peter's message replied:<br /></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we <span class="s1" style="text-decoration-line: underline;">do</span>? (Acts 2:37)</i></span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />Philip preached Jesus to the the Ethiopian Eunuch, and after believing the Gospel, the latter said to him, in Acts 8:36:<br /></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? (Acts 8:36)</i></span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /> "<span class="s1" style="text-decoration-line: underline;">what hinders me</span> from being baptised?" Reads a lot like "<u>What shall we do</u>? Right? And What was Philip's answer? Well, it was just like Peter's!</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>And Philip said, If you believe with all thine heart, you may. And he (the Eunuch) answered (Philip) and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.(Acts 8:37)</i> </span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Belief in Jesus is shown here as a <span class="s1" style="text-decoration-line: underline;">conditional prerequisite</span> for Baptism.</span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />IF THOU, (then) THOU MAYEST.</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />THESIS POINT: "(Y)our belief does not begin the process".</span></b></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">As just shown, belief most certainly DOES begin the process of conversion to Christian Salvation. In ALL examples of Christian conversion found in our Bible, Repentance always follows belief.</span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Regeneration happens after a believer repents and then is subsequently sanctified by the Spirit.<br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">This is proven by Peter’s statement when he says in the very first message preached to believers after the ascension:<br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)</i></span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Quite clearly, this text demonstrates regeneration follows belief.</span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Acts 19 bears this out further when the apostles meet believing Disciples who had not been regenerated through the covenant of baptisms. Acts 19:1-7</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, </i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. </i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. </i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. </i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. </i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. </i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>7 And all the men were about twelve. (Acts 19:1-7)</i></span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b><span style="font-family: courier;">Q: Would God regenerate the unrepentant?</span></b></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">No.<br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b><span style="font-family: courier;">Q: Can someone repent without belief?</span></b></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">No.<br /><br />It is only logical to assert, as Peter did, that we must believe, repent, and be baptized (water and spirit)<b>[in that order]</b> to be regenerated aka reborn aka born again: John 3:3-5.</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)</i></span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"> </span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b><span style="font-family: courier;">THESIS POINT: "Repentance does not save anyone."<br /></span></b></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">While it is true that repentance alone does not save us. It is the COVENANT we have with Christ and the deposit of His Spirit in us by way of the New Covenant which DOES.</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b><span style="font-family: courier;">THESIS SUPPORTER:</span></b></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b><span style="font-family: courier;">Baptism isn't a requirement for salvation, it's a proclamation of your desire to follow Jesus and live a faith in Christ filled life.</span></b></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b><span style="font-family: courier;">RIVERFORUM</span></b></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">This is a popular evangelical teaching, but to assert that Baptism is not a requirement for Salvation forces one to deny many scriptures, many shown above, which speak to the contrary:</span></p><ul class="ul1"><li class="li3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span class="s2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span>Acts 2:37-39, </span></li><li class="li3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span class="s2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span>Acts 8, </span></li><li class="li3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span class="s2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span>Acts 10, </span></li><li class="li3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span class="s2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span>Acts 19, </span></li><li class="li3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span class="s2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span>Mark 16:16-19, </span></li><li class="li3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span class="s2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span>Matthew 28:19, </span></li><li class="li3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span class="s2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span>John 3:3-5,</span></li><li class="li3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span class="s2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span>Colossians 2</span></li><li class="li3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span class="s2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span>1 Peter 3:21</span></li><li class="li3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span class="s2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span>Mark 16:16-19</span></li></ul><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;">The purpose of Baptism is not to </span><i style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;">make or confirm a </i><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;">public statement, r</span>ather, making the "</span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">proclamation" that you believe that Jesus Christ is almighty God come in flesh, died, resurrected and ascended merely makes you an eligible <i>candidate</i> for the Covenant of baptism(s) - the transaction where the remission of your sins is literally applied to your life. </span></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">One cannot cherry pick scripture to fit ANY given system of theology to make that system more convenient. We must adapt our understanding to what was actually taught by Christ and his Apostles - not modern revisions.</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">The New Covenant does <span class="s1" style="text-decoration-line: underline;">include</span> both water Baptism and the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. (aka the earnest of our inheritance (Eph 1:14) that seals us for Eternal Salvation. </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">This is what was referred to in Hebrews 6:2 as the "doctrine (singular) of baptisms (plural)".<br /></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, </i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>2 Of the <span class="s1" style="text-decoration-line: underline;">doctrine of baptisms</span>, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. </i></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>3 And this will we do, if God permit. (Hebrews 6:1-3)</i></span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">The passage above declares that these are the fundaments of the "Doctrine of Christ" in two basic categories: </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><ol class="ol1"><li class="li3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God;</span></li><li class="li3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. </span></li></ol><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Paul is saying here that it is a <span class="s1" style="text-decoration-line: underline;">foundational basic doctrine</span> (of baptisms) that should be common with all Christians. Baptism is more inextricable from the Salvation process than many modern christians first assume, or even are willing to admit. </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Knowing the difference between justification and sanctification is the key in having assurance of salvation. Sometimes folks blur the lines of these definitions which raises questions. </span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">So let's take a moment and REALLY look at this using Peter as a threadline:</span></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Jesus tells us we have to be born again of water and spirit</b></span></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></span></p><ul><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)</i></span></li></ul><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Jesus tells us we need to believe and be baptized to be saved</b></span></span></p><ul><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16)</i></span></li></ul><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><br /></i></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Jesus gives authority to Peter to teach the "keys of the kingdom"</b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><br /></i></span></div><div><ul><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>(Jesus to Peter) I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:19)</i></span></li></ul><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Jesus Ascends and tells Peter and his followers who were to wait to receive the Holy Ghost</b><br /><br /></span><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>And, (Jesus) being assembled together with them (Apostles), commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. <a href="https://biblehub.com/acts/1-5.htm"><span class="s1" style="color: #dca10d;">5</span></a>For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. (Acts 1:4-5)</i></span></li></ul><p></p></div></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>After the Holy Ghost is poured out Peter commands all new believers to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (water) and to receive the Holy Ghost (spirit).</b></span></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:37)</i></span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /><b>If the Church confirms your confession of faith they baptise you in water (Ethiopian Eunuch) or they decline (Simon the Magus). (John 20:23), </b></span></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. (John 20:23) </span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>If God confirms you, he baptises you in Spirit.</b> <b>Here, Peter is preaching and God just does it.</b></span></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (Acts 10:44)</i></span></li></ul><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>But, sometimes the Holy Ghost is conferred by a Spirit Filled person laying hands on the believer. Here Peter and John made a 3 day journey to Samaria from Jerusalem just to lay hands on the believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Again - these are BELIEVERS who have yet to receive. (Acts 8:10-14)</b></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: <a href="https://biblehub.com/acts/8-15.htm"><span class="s1" style="color: #dca10d;">15</span></a>Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: <a href="https://biblehub.com/acts/8-16.htm"><span class="s1" style="color: #dca10d;">16</span></a>(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) <a href="https://biblehub.com/acts/8-17.htm"><span class="s1" style="color: #dca10d;">17</span></a>Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:10-14)</i></span></li></ul><p></p></div><div><br /></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Those who believe and are water-baptised in Jesus Name, still need the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Those folks who are water-baptised in a name other than Jesus Christ, or before an age where they could repent, need to be rebaptized in the name of Jesus.</b></span></div><ul><li><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, <a href="https://biblehub.com/acts/19-2.htm"><span class="s1" style="color: #dca10d;">2</span></a>He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. <a href="https://biblehub.com/acts/19-3.htm"><span class="s1" style="color: #dca10d;">3</span></a>And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. <a href="https://biblehub.com/acts/19-4.htm"><span class="s1" style="color: #dca10d;">4</span></a>Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. <a href="https://biblehub.com/acts/19-5.htm"><span class="s1" style="color: #dca10d;">5</span></a><span style="background-color: #fcff01;">When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus</span>. <a href="https://biblehub.com/acts/19-6.htm"><span class="s1" style="color: #dca10d;">6</span></a>And when <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them</span>; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. <a href="https://biblehub.com/acts/19-7.htm"><span class="s1" style="color: #dca10d;">7</span></a>And all the men were about twelve. (Acts 19:1-7)</i></span></p></li></ul><p></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Whatsoever is bound on earth, is bound in heaven. God's true Church is His Bride - they are united and work together for the salvation of humanity. </b>(see again Acts 8:36-37) </span></span></p><div><span style="background-color: white; font-family: Merriweather, Georgia, serif; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></span></div><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Restructuring the Biblical pattern for conversion to align with modern theology has dire eternal consequences when the resulting teaching is not in harmony with the Apostle’s Doctrine or of Jesus' recorded words. Tragically, such errors undermine the believer from receiving the fullness of their inheritance and deprive the believer from receiving the victorious power intended by God for their journey.<br /><br />If a believer is fooled into thinking they are regenerated when they believe, and already in a Covenant they are not actually in, then that stops them seeking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit because they have reasoned they already have what they need of God. </span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />These therefore veer off into a mode of Christian belief outside of a true Covenant relationship with Christ - one that void of power, anointing, and true sanctification which prompts them to devise all manner of "excuse teachings" to explain the delta between the Apostolic experience of the "dynamos" and their current state.<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">I have actually heard several individuals, when confronted about their need for Holy Spirit Baptism, arrogantly make statements like "I have all the Holy Ghost I need!"</span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Enter cessationism, etc. This is what is referred to in the Scripture by "having a form of godliness"</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. (2 Tim 3:5)</i></span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Again we MUST stop wrestling scripture to fit our mindsets and we must allow it to speak for itself. </span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">God forbid that should ever be the case that you or I ever have <i>enough</i> of God's presence in our lives to be satisfied!</span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Perhaps all of this is best summarized in Acts 22:16 when Paul recounts what Ananias told him upon his conversion to Jesus Christ. One CAN NOT be a biblically accurate Christian and extricate the rite of baptism from the remission of sins for it is at that moment we enter into His glorious covenant through the circumcision of our hearts.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16)(KJV)<br /><br /></span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’</span><span style="font-family: courier;"></span><span style="font-family: courier;">(Acts 22:16)(NIV)</span></li></ul><div><span style="font-family: courier;">And what is that "name"?</span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="font-family: courier;">Jesus.</span></div><p></p><p class="p3" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"> </span></p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-76437515314416905662022-12-28T14:24:00.009-05:002023-08-08T23:24:09.970-04:00Spiritual Gifts - For Today or Yesterday? A Refutation of John MacArthur<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><p></p></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><h3 style="text-align: left;"><b style="font-family: courier;">POSTED ONLINE BY A BELIEVER:</b></h3><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj8wJv5HjRmWkB22yUExJGXrSj9e2K_yWSXU0yt5CXVeffZP57eP575nut008L5Y2LpFCdJ98wXAkh2DH7H14lInzyEHsaCR759WGkSp-baRklzxnror0y389OEUQTZC8g6Sa6X7I5zhMPCgk47Ip7Bf9D4-rkiqbiHbukATf-RcmMYPpFmEA/s1342/Screen%20Shot%202022-12-28%20at%206.18.48%20PM.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><img border="0" data-original-height="988" data-original-width="1342" height="421" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj8wJv5HjRmWkB22yUExJGXrSj9e2K_yWSXU0yt5CXVeffZP57eP575nut008L5Y2LpFCdJ98wXAkh2DH7H14lInzyEHsaCR759WGkSp-baRklzxnror0y389OEUQTZC8g6Sa6X7I5zhMPCgk47Ip7Bf9D4-rkiqbiHbukATf-RcmMYPpFmEA/w571-h421/Screen%20Shot%202022-12-28%20at%206.18.48%20PM.png" width="571" /></span></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>RIVERFORUM</b></span></h3><span style="font-family: courier;">MacArthur paints with a really broad brush in this statement. What specific aspect of Charismatic Theology? Begs the question whether or not there even a unified Theology amongst charismatics.</span><p></p></div></div><p></p><h3 style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><b style="font-family: courier;">POSTED ONLINE BY A BELIEVER:</b></h3><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><b style="font-family: courier;"><br /></b></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><b style="font-family: courier;"><br /></b></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgFY7x8WZ8D-94AlTfwVTM6xjWWlaT5-b5qEx2rgWhqmvbYAGRBuBidnfryPMCzBOGel6RUzzjgB7lvDPfn6gJaiucQ2nLrBjQGSGJ9bq_1-kwrPsiFq_hSDJKhbjYfot0L0mSAdMeMp9TetsaXGTMXDF4z9Lfo-tVM3j6Z8xEnoX3iGrdyQA/s1342/Screen%20Shot%202022-12-28%20at%206.15.48%20PM.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><img border="0" data-original-height="940" data-original-width="1342" height="383" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgFY7x8WZ8D-94AlTfwVTM6xjWWlaT5-b5qEx2rgWhqmvbYAGRBuBidnfryPMCzBOGel6RUzzjgB7lvDPfn6gJaiucQ2nLrBjQGSGJ9bq_1-kwrPsiFq_hSDJKhbjYfot0L0mSAdMeMp9TetsaXGTMXDF4z9Lfo-tVM3j6Z8xEnoX3iGrdyQA/w548-h383/Screen%20Shot%202022-12-28%20at%206.15.48%20PM.png" width="548" /></span></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><h3 style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>RIVERFORUM</b></span></h3><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />Painting again with a characteristically broad brush, if MacArthur here is suggesting that speaking in tongues for example is not from the Spirit of God then he transverses dangerous ground. With such clear biblical support and evidence for the same, to suggest that it is not of God is drawing very near to the unpardonable sin - that of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.</span></div><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />He needs to declare with specificity which practices he deems unbiblical or else his statement is useless.<br /><br /></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>David</b> danced so fervently before the ark of the lord that he became disrobed! </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Ezekiel</b> laid on one side 390 days and lived off cakes of meal cooked over his own dung! </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Abraham</b> walked his son up a mountain to sacrifice his son on an altar. </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Elijah</b> was fed by ravens. </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Elisha</b> told the king to dip 7 times in the Jordan. </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Joshua</b> marched and blew trumpets. </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Balaam’s</b> ass spoke to him. </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Even on the day of pentecost, the onlooking observers thought the 120 were drunk as they spoke with tongues. <b>Peter</b> had to correct them beginning “These men are not drunk as ye suppose…”</span></li></ul><p></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">On what basis does this MacArthur claim he knows the ways of the Lord? Sometimes God DOES ask bizarre things of us and move us in bizarre ways. This minister seems very small minded indeed. <br /><br />MacArthur's rhetoric reeks of obvious cessationism and a very poor understanding of scriptural teaching on spiritual gifts especially when pentecostalism in all forms represents over 644 million people globally who have experienced the Baptism of the Holy Spirit accompanied with the manifestation of speaking in tongues.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />Cessationism is just willful ignorance and easily refuted with scripture and overwhelmed by personal testimonies of millions.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><h3 style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>WHAT IS CESSATIONISM?</b></span></h3><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" />According to Wikipedia:<br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><blockquote style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-family: courier;">"(Cessationists hold) that the "<span class="s1">sign gifts</span>" (such as <span class="s1">prophecy</span>) described in the Bible were temporarily granted to the <span class="s1">apostles</span> to authenticate the origin and truth of the scriptures, and that at the close of the <span class="s1">Apostolic Age</span> these gifts had served their purpose and ceased to be granted."</span></blockquote><p><br /></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">Cessationism is essentially a bible believing Christian's attempt to rationalize their own experience not having received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and manifesting spiritual gifts. For centuries this experience and latter gifts were ignored, feared, and taught against by most mainline churches. <br /><br />With the exception of certain pocket movements, and most certainly after 1900 with the explosion of American Pentecostalism after the Azusa Street revivals that launched so many denominations such as Church of God, Assemblies of God, UPC, PAW, ALJC, COGIC, and others, many denominational christians galvanized around cessationist teaching until many of their own constituents started experiencing similar experiences. <br /><br />Various charismatic movements have even arisen WITHIN larger denominations like Catholic, Episcopalian, Methodist etc. This phenomenon has largely led to an easing and often a quiet reversal of cessationist dogma. <br /><br />Cessationism is still found and taught however in various presbyterian movements, Evangelical Free, Southern Baptist, and other independent churches with inconsistency.<br /></span></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b style="font-family: Times;"><span style="font-family: courier;">WHAT IS THE BASIS OF CESSATIONIST TEACHING?</span></b></span></h3><p><span style="font-family: courier;">The basis of the teaching begins with a misunderstanding of Paul's teaching to the church at Corinth in 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 which states:<br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b></b></p><blockquote><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>8 </b>Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.<br /><b>9 </b>For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.<br /><b>10 </b>But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. </i></span></div></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: courier;">Despite the fact that Paul spends the ENTIRE previous chapter explaining spiritual gifts and how they are to operate in a church setting (Corinth was particularly challenged by keeping order), and the full next chapter as well on how to administrate prophesy and public address in tongues in church meetings, the cessationists point only to verse 8 and say:<br /></span></p><blockquote><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>"AHA! SEE! <b>Tongues shall CEASE</b>, meaning they were for then - that time, and now we don't need tongues to convince us of the Gospel.</i>"</span></blockquote><span style="font-family: courier;">But wait, there is a precondition for cessation, "When that which is perfect is come..." To which they say:</span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><blockquote><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>"Exactly! <b>That which is perfect</b> HAS already come. The BIBLE. Once the Bible (in its current canon of course) was completed, these signs stopped. Those gifts happening today are not from God but from the devil or fake."</i></span></blockquote><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>IS THAT TRUE? HAS SPEAKING IN TONGUES CEASED?</b></span></h3><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />Hold on now! When they infer upon the text in line 10 "when that which is perfect is come" where does it say that this is "The Bible"? </span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Paul was simply writing a letter to a church here. He did not think he was writing scripture to be added to the canon of Old Testament Scripture! </span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Most of the gospels had not yet been written at the time he wrote this letter, so how could Paul have implied "that which is perfect" to mean a new canon of scripture to INCLUDE the selfsame letter?<br /><br />No. Read closely. He talks about four things and only one of which (charity) endures after that which is perfect shall come:</span><p></p><p></p><ol style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Charity (love)</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Prophesies</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Tongues</span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">Knowledge</span></li></ol><p></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">IF <b>the bible</b> is "that which is perfect" then the cessationist has to also accept that:</span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">1) prophesies have ceased (they are ok with this), </span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">2)tongues have ceased (also ok with this), and </span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">3) <b>KNOWLEDGE</b> has ceased.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">Wait now, KNOWLEDGE? Is it true that when the Bible was completed that all Knowledge ceased? Daniel 12:4 certainly contradicts this and actually points us to the "end".<br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><blockquote><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many <b>shall</b> run to and fro, and <b>knowledge</b> <b>shall</b> <b>be</b> <b>increased</b>.</i></span></blockquote><p></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">So until the time of the end, we should expect to see an <i>increase</i> in knowledge and human movement NOT a <i>cessation</i> of knowledge. And that we do! <br /><br />On the day of Pentecost when the Holy Ghost was first given and the sign of tongues first appeared, Peter had this to say about it after he commanded the Jews present to join them in the experience:<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b></b></p><blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>38 </b>Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.</i></span> </p></blockquote><blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>39 </b>For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.</i></span></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">If the promise of the Holy Ghost is for all whom God calls, would it not stand to reason that this is still true today? <br /><br />Or else, is God simply NOT CALLING PEOPLE? Of course He is! </span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">Therefore, the promise is <u><b>still active</b></u>.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /><br />Just think about it <b>logically...</b> <br /><br />When we are standing in heaven before Jesus on the other side of eternity, what use is prophesy or tongues when you can walk right up to Jesus and ask Him something? <br /><br />What use will knowledge be of a world that is over and destroyed? <br /><br />Love remains because LOVE endures as <u>principally useful</u> in eternity with God. <br /><br />These other things (tongues, knowledge, prophesy) are designed for us during our temporal experience - while we live on earth as mortals and seek guidance and wisdom from our God. <br /><br /><u>We do not live in a world of perfection that has come</u>. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">The Bible exists as a guide for THIS broken world. Even the Bible we have has flaws in it by way of interpolations </span><span style="font-family: courier;">(see Johannine comma)</span><span style="font-family: courier;">,</span><span style="font-family: courier;"> mistranslations (Latin Vulgate), and even challenging contradictions (the order of events of the resurrection witnesses). </span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">It's hardly perfect. Yet, it is what we have.<br /><br />Rather Paul said "that which is perfect shall come" he was simply talking about SALVATION, our eternal redemption and reunion with God in perfect holiness and fellowship.<br /><br /></span></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>SPIRITUAL GIFTS ARE FOR TODAY!</b></span></h3><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />So, have prophesies and tongues ceased? <br /><br />Well...only for those who reject/deny them. <br /><br />For the rest of us who walk in the Spirit and in Truth, they endure and are the very spark and fire of the Holy Spirit of God in personal activity!<br /><br />1 Corinthians 12:31<br /><br /></span><p></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></b></p><blockquote><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>31 </b>But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.</span></blockquote><p></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">Paul exhorts us to eagerly seek these gifts from God and then goes on in chapter 13 about how administration of gifts is nothing without charity (love) because it is eternally enduring. <br /><br />He is NOT saying that we should have love and neglect the Spiritual Gifts, rather he IS saying that we should seek to manifest Spiritual Gifts IN LOVE.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">That's where the <u>true</u> power with God is.<br /><br />Paul actually sums up the block of thought from chapters 12 and 13 in verse 14:1-22 where he states:<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><blockquote><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy...</i></span> </blockquote><blockquote><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>5 </i></span><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied...</i></span></span> </blockquote><blockquote><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>22 </i></span></span><span style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;">Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe</span></i></span><i style="background-color: white; font-family: courier; font-size: 16px;">:</i></blockquote><p></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">So YES we follow love AND we are to desire spiritual gifts! Even after he talked about tongues ceasing because he was illustrating the point that love is the enduring principle for manifesting the same, he exhorts the Corinthians to CONTINUE to desire and manifest the best Spiritual Gifts of GOD.<br /><br />Tongues is given as a sign to show unbelievers that God is working in that person and manifesting Himself through them by Faith. <br /><br /><b>Apparently John MacArthur isn't getting the message.</b><br /><br />Millions and Millions of Jesus-loving Christians can't ALL be wrong.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p></p><h3 style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>WHY IS THIS SO IMPORTANT?</b></span></h3><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">Because if one takes up the position that tongues and prophesies have ceased and YET it is still happening for millions of Jesus-loving Bible-believing Christians, then one is FORCED to draw the conclusion that such manifestations are either </span></p><p></p><ol style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: courier;">fake/acted </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">mass hysteria/psychosis, or </span></li><li><span style="font-family: courier;">of spiritual origin other than God (evil or Satan)<br /></span></li></ol><div><span style="font-family: courier;">I began this rebuttal by stating how MacArthur was treading dangerous ground... Here is why (Matthew 12:22-32):<br /><br /></span></div><p></p></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>22 </b>Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.</span></p></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><div style="text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>23 </b>And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?</span></p></div></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><div style="text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>24 </b>But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils</span>.</span></p></div></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><div style="text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>25 </b>And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:</span></p></div></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><div style="text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>26 </b>And <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself</span>; how shall then his kingdom stand?</span></p></div></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><div style="text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>27 </b>And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.</span></p></div></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><div style="text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>28 </b>But <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you</span>.</span></p></div></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><div style="text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>29 </b>Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.</span></p></div></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><div style="text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>30 </b>He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.</span></p></div></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><div style="text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>31 </b>Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men</span>.</span></p></div></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><div style="text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>32 </b>And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><p><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>IT IS <u>VERY</u> DANGEROUS GROUND TO EVEN IMPLY THAT THE ACTS OF GOD ARE OF THE DEVIL. ESPECIALLY CONCERNING THE HOLY GHOST AND THE OPERATION OF HIS GIFTS!</b><br /><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;">According to Wikipedia</span></p><p></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><blockquote><span style="font-family: courier;"><i></i></span></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>"John Fullerton MacArthur Jr. is an American Protestant pastor and author known for his internationally syndicated Christian teaching radio and television program Grace to You. He has been the pastor of Grace Community Church, a non-denominational church in Sun Valley, California since February 9, 1969. ... </i></span> </blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>MacArthur is a <span class="s1">cessationist....</span> He is one of the most prominent voices in American Christianity against the <span class="s1">continuationist</span> beliefs of <span class="s1">Pentecostalism</span> and the <span class="s1">Charismatic Movement</span>, which assert that God continues to confer sign gifts today. MacArthur has written three books on the subject.</i><i>"</i></span></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></div><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p></div><p><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /> </span></p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-81370536035225880332022-12-27T16:08:00.018-05:002023-02-09T17:52:14.344-05:00Is Belief Enough? What is "born (again) of water and the Spirit"?<p style="text-align: left;"></p><p style="height: 0px; text-align: left;"></p><div style="text-align: left;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiS7N1PT8yIgQrKziVRXkVO_ocew_Moo4K3Z2UO-b_4-Cf_z-kNl0Y0bG4D79_P5YHWFJJmb00XOgK1H5qthZ3L7YKhSNZ2elNQUgtUoKOfLMmGBV5EysD2mo3zwZX5WwujjkkpnpzSFxbtkET8H3nBn2M8m9siVoBh7MTX2_a2XFaXD1So2A/s1352/Screen%20Shot%202022-12-27%20at%208.23.34%20PM.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="948" data-original-width="1352" height="437" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiS7N1PT8yIgQrKziVRXkVO_ocew_Moo4K3Z2UO-b_4-Cf_z-kNl0Y0bG4D79_P5YHWFJJmb00XOgK1H5qthZ3L7YKhSNZ2elNQUgtUoKOfLMmGBV5EysD2mo3zwZX5WwujjkkpnpzSFxbtkET8H3nBn2M8m9siVoBh7MTX2_a2XFaXD1So2A/w623-h437/Screen%20Shot%202022-12-27%20at%208.23.34%20PM.png" width="623" /></a></div><span style="font-family: courier;">Original Post:<br /><br /><b>RIVERFORUM:</b><br /> <br /></span><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">One must read on from <b>John 3:3</b> to understand fully, that rebirth is of the water and of the spirit. (<b>John 3:3-5</b>) not merely confession and repentance. Verse 5 says:<br /><br /></span></p><blockquote><i><span style="font-family: courier;">"</span><span style="font-family: courier;">Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." (John 3:5)</span></i></blockquote><span style="font-family: courier;"></span><p></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">We must be buried with Him in baptism (water) and renewed by the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. (fire/spirit).</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">This is what is referred to in <b>Hebrews 6:1-2</b> as the "doctrine of baptisms". Note: doctrine (singular) baptisms (plural).</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">At all critical conversion points in Acts we are told to be baptized in water and in the holy spirit. <b>(Acts 2, 8, 10, 19)</b>.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Essential to salvation? Yes. <br /><b><br /></b></span></p><blockquote style="text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Mark 16:16. </b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>6 </b>He that <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">believeth and is baptized</span> shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.</i></span></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b></b></span></p><blockquote style="text-align: left;"><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>1 Peter 3:18-22.<br /></b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>18 </b>For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>19 </b>By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>20 </b>Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>21 </b>The like figure whereunto even <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:</span></i></span></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />Do you disagree? Does this teaching not reconcile to your current beliefs and what you’ve been taught by your church or fellowship? Does what you are now being shown in the Bible seem new - almost like it was hidden in plain sight? <br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Reading ALL of these above passages in context, they certainly challenge modern church teaching on the subject of Baptism. Albeit, we must be followers of the <u>Word</u>. <u>Not</u> our church traditions.<br /><br />I encourage you to come along to what Scripture says and don’t lean on your understanding (<i>i.e. don't look for scripture to confirm your doctrinal biases. Read the words for what they SAY.</i>) </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><b style="font-family: courier;"><br /></b></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><b style="font-family: courier;">"Why then doesn't my church teach that Baptism is essential to Salvation when these passages clearly indicate that it is.?"</b></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />We are to hold steadfastly in the Apostle’s Doctrine. Not our church movements. Why?<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>Matthew 7:14</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which. leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.</i></span></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Critic 1: Nonsense. </b></span><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>If we believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins we are "saved."</b><br /><br /></span><b style="font-family: courier;">RIVERFORUM:</b><br style="font-family: courier;" /><span style="font-family: courier;"> </span><br /><span><span style="font-family: courier;">"Nonsense" is </span><span style="font-family: courier;">more than a bit reductionist and quite dismissive. This isn't as much “teaching” as it is “quoting”. I am actually framing for you the biblical position based on what the Bible itself teaches on this subject. One is free to disagree based on their beliefs, but I must point out that such disagreement is not with me. It is with the text itself. If one does not accept the text, that’s another matter entirely. My exegesis is faithful to the texts. They say what they say.<br /><br /></span></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Going on then, belief is essential to salvation, so are baptisms. One can't pick and choose scriptures. It's either all true or it's not. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom by Jesus. He commanded baptism in <b>Acts 2</b>, and explained why in <b>1 Peter 3:21-22.<br /><br /></b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">The book of <b>Colossians (Col 2:8-15)</b> discusses how baptism is the new circumcision of the heart. A Jew was not a Jew if left uncircumcised no matter what his faith, because neglecting that left the Jew OUTSIDE of the covenant with God. <br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b></b></p><blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>8 </b>Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>9 </b>For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>10 </b>And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>11 </b>In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ</span>:</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>12 </b><span style="background-color: #fcff01;">Buried with him in baptism</span>, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>13 </b>And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>14 </b>Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;</span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>15 </b>And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.</span></i></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />A Christian who believes and has not been baptized in both water and spirit is simply a believer/disciple. This is what they were called. </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />The book of Acts shows how such believers were brought into the church. (<b>Acts 8, 10, 19)</b> are your examples where believers were brought into the covenant with Christ through aligning to Jesus' direction to be both baptized by water like John the Baptist did, and also with fire as He would later do (<b>Acts 1:5) Luke writing...<br /></b><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><b></b></span></p><blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>1 </b>The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>2 </b>Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>3 </b>To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>4 </b>And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></i></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><b>5 </b>For <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.</span></i></span></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br />JEWS</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Acts 2 shows god fearing Jews coming to faith after seeing the 120 receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>36 ...Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">Men and brethren, what shall we do?</span></i></span></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">OK, NOW THEY BELIEVE PETER'S TESTIMONY ABOUT JESUS... WHAT NEXT?</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>38 Then Peter said unto them, <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost</span>.</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">Save yourselves</span> from this untoward generation.</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>41 Then <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">they that gladly received his word were baptized</span>: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.</i></span></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">BELIEF/REPENTANCE + WATER BAPTISM + SPIRIT BAPTISM<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">SAMARITANS</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Acts 8:14-16 Shows believers with water baptism, needing spirit baptism.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>4 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">had received the word of God</span>, they sent unto them Peter and John:</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>16 (<span style="background-color: #fcff01;">For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus</span>.)</i></span></p></blockquote><p> </p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">BELIEF/REPENTANCE + WATER BAPTISM + SPIRIT BAPTISM</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">ROMANS<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">But Acts 10 really brings it home.... It starts out with PETER preaching to the Gentile Roman Cornelius:<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><blockquote><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>Acts 10:43 ...To him (Jesus) give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.</i></span></blockquote><p></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Ok that lines up so far with what you said, but go on... they weren't done!<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>45 And they of the circumcision <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">which believed</span> were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.</span></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><span style="background-color: #fcff01;">46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God</span>. Then answered Peter,</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>47 C<span style="background-color: #fcff01;">an any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?</span></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><span style="background-color: #fcff01;">48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.</span> Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.</i></span></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">BELIEF/REPENTANCE + WATER BAPTISM + SPIRIT BAPTISM</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">GREEKS/ASIA MINOR</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>ACTS 19</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">certain disciples</span>,</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.</span></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">And they said, Unto John's baptism.</span></i></span></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">SO HERE PAUL IS TAKING THE SAME INVENTORY OF BELIEVERS THAT PETER DID. "OK, SO YOU BELIEVE...WERE YOU BAPTISED IN WATER AND SPIRIT YET?" </span><span style="font-family: courier;">THEY WERE REBAPTIZED INTO JESUS AND THEN RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.</i></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: courier;">REMEMBER THIS FROM ACTS 1:1-5? </span></p><blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>5 <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus</span>.</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>6 And when <span style="background-color: #fcff01;">Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.</span></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>7 And all the men were about twelve.</i></span></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">BELIEF/REPENTANCE + WATER BAPTISM + SPIRIT BAPTISM<br /><br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Teaching belief ONLY ignores the weight of scripture and robs the Christian of the fullness of their experience in Christ. It began on the day of Pentecost and endures to this day.<br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><i><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></i></p><blockquote><i><span style="font-family: courier;">"</span><span style="font-family: courier;">Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." (John 3:5)</span></i></blockquote><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: courier;"><b>Critic 2: I know so many "good people", but they do not believe they have to accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour to get into Heaven.<br /><br /><br />RIVERFORUM:<br /><br /></b></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i></i></span></p><blockquote><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i></span></blockquote><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><span class="Apple-converted-space"></span></i></span><p></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">One needs more than simply believing that Jesus is Lord. Even the devil believes in Jesus. Judas Iscariot had a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" - and that closer than any of us ever had.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">What makes our faith "saving faith" is the covenant we can enter into with Him through the "doctrine of baptisms".</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;">Read above my citations of where the Bible teaches us HOW to be born of water and of spirit. <br /><br />Notice here below that these are disciples/believers in Jesus who had been baptised in a manner different than the Apostles and Jesus prescribed for the church - They were RE-baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus (not father, son, and holy spirit) AND they received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. <br /><br />Just as over 644 Million modern christians alive today worldwide have done.</span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"></span></p><blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>Acts 19 1:7</i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,</i></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><br /></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.</i></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><br /></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.</i></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><br /></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.</i></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><br /></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.</i></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><br /></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.</i></span></p><p class="p2" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i><br /></i></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i>7 And all the men were about twelve.</i></span></p></blockquote><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: courier;"><i></i></span></p><p><span style="font-family: courier;"><b><br /><br /> </b></span></p><i><span style="font-family: courier; font-size: medium;"></span></i><p></p><p style="text-align: left;"></p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-38366311535845518712022-11-28T15:24:00.007-05:002022-11-28T18:34:39.068-05:00On Predestination<p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b></b></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhFdO78ojLF5zf-WNgNmrKg77qwh8tYF52YQgTjnIgwzrfBPz2KsvI1zOUpfywAcQG9t_40XQMXu-1n2fekZRZF99cQT4miTzd0nYvnlFl2MUhxMomy34cBwb4fsqH4RtH6zlJ6NPlLTU0qNu5EjcKBIslHhQ-8jFjsKaixgjW0Ua4rwDPi_g" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="182" data-original-width="277" height="387" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEhFdO78ojLF5zf-WNgNmrKg77qwh8tYF52YQgTjnIgwzrfBPz2KsvI1zOUpfywAcQG9t_40XQMXu-1n2fekZRZF99cQT4miTzd0nYvnlFl2MUhxMomy34cBwb4fsqH4RtH6zlJ6NPlLTU0qNu5EjcKBIslHhQ-8jFjsKaixgjW0Ua4rwDPi_g=w590-h387" width="590" /></a></b></span></div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b><br /><br /></b></span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Poster:</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">"What doctrine is more emptying, humbling, and therefore sanctifying than predestination? It lays the axe at the root of all human boasting. In the light of this truth, the most holy believer sees that there is no difference between him and the vilest sinner that crawls the earth, but what the mere grace of God has made." - Octavius Winslow</span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>RIVERFORUM:</b><br /><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Except... it leads to John Calvin exonerating himself for burning alive those who disagree with him theologically, and still expecting the riches of heaven. </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The false security of a "chosen one" who can do no deed evil enough to deprive them of grace, and of a "damned one" who can do no act of repentance worthy to allow them to receive the same is a damnable heresy that robs mankind of their free moral agency to choose Christ and follow Him and His doctrine. </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">If predestination is true, then what value is there in exhorting the chosen to live holy? Or in evangelizing those who are ignorant of the gospel? And what of those who die in that same ignorance? </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">What Calvin misunderstands is that our first gift as free moral agents in the garden was Choice. God in his wisdom and omniscience had a plan ("Logos" <b>John 1</b>) for both potential futures - if the fruit was not eaten, and then if it was. </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">In <b>Genesis 18:20-33</b>, we see evidence of Abraham negotiating with God for the lives of the righteous living in Sodom and Gomorrah. God intended to destroy it utterly, but Abraham reasoned with God and God relaxed his decision to allow Lot & Company to escape. This is manifest evidence of the interaction of two free moral agents (God and Man) co-negotiating a potential future based on alternative outcomes. </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"><b>So what does this mean?</b><br />Romans 8:29-30. "29 </span><span face="system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Noto Sans", sans-serif, Arial" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;">For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 </span><span face="system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Noto Sans", sans-serif, Arial" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;">Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.</span><span face="system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Noto Sans", sans-serif, Arial" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;">"</span><span face="system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Noto Sans", sans-serif, Arial" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;"> </span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">The predestination discussed here "<span face="system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Noto Sans", sans-serif, Arial" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;">is that for those whom God knows will come to faith, his desire is for them to become like Jesus - brothers of Jesus. The question remains? Who is predestined? Those that are called. And who does God call? EVERYONE!</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b>2 Peter 3:9</b> explicitly declares the will of God toward man regarding man's salvation.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for <b>ALL</b> to come to repentance."<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">It is NOT God's will that any perish? Yes. YET...some do! ALL do not actually come to repentance. God has only predestined all for salvation, in that he has created a destiny available to all who CHOOSE to believe it. NOT that the chosen of god, the elect, are specifically chosen and cannot escape the grip of irresistible grace. If grace is IRRESISTIBLE, then by definition it is not GRACE, it is COMPULSION however benevolent. God is not a tyrant with either Grace OR Damnation.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> <br /><br />God predestines ALL for salvation and yet some defy that destiny. For, if it is</span> not God's will that we should sin against Him - why DO we? <br /><br />Judas knew, followed, believed in, and gave his life to Jesus - yet he did not attain salvation.<br />By his example, we have proof that grace can be resisted! We see Paul "kicking against the pricks" in his resistance to Grace.<br /><br />How can someone predestined for Salvation, drawn by irresistible grace, with eternal security even sin if CHOICE is not the operative mechanism of their moral agency? Why does God desire that we be conformed to the image of Jesus? So that we might attain our estate and not forfeit it.<br /><br />A soul - earnestly seeking God, will be sought out directly by the Spirit of God for ministry. He pursues US. Just as he told us in the parable of the Good Shepherd (<b>Matthew 18:12-14</b>) where he leaves the 99 and 9 and goes after the one.</p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><br />The conversion of Cornelius in <b>Acts 10</b> is a great example of someone who was outside of the parameters of faith, yet was living godly. God pursued <i>him</i>, and sent to him those who would deliver him and his family into the Truth. Calvinism would have left Cornelius in the dust of the Roman Road because he was not of the "chosen ones" irresistibly drawn to grace and truth.</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">Yet even for the Jews, God's favor was not a given. Individuals still had to CHOOSE to follow God.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b>Joshua 24:15</b></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">It is quite clearly that Calvinism is a naive vestige of Judaism (chosen people), contradicted by Jesus himself made the way open for ALL who believe (choice) and would repent (also a choice).</p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b>1 Timothy 4:1</b> says that in latter times some will actually fall away from the faith proving it is possible to attain salvation and then willfully abandon it.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 15px;"><br /></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;">There is no eternal security this side of heaven. We must ABIDE in Him.<br /><br /><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Calvinism has been already laid to waste as a vapid and destructive doctrine.</span><br style="font-family: helvetica;" /><br style="font-family: helvetica;" /><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Thomas Jefferson was chief among their contemporary critics who railed against the hateful intolerance and virulent arrogance of the Presbyterian clergy of his day.</span><br style="font-family: helvetica;" /><br style="font-family: helvetica;" /><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Let us not resurrect from dead bones, bad and unproductive doctrines that ought never to have seen the light of day to begin with.</span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>FEEDBACK - FROM A COMMENTATOR</b><br /><br /></span></p><div style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">In my humblest voice, I would encourage everyone to note the difference between predestined and predetermined. The two are not the same.<br /></span><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></div><div style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">When Israel emerged from Egypt, they were predestined (a destiny set in advance) to possess the Promised Land. Yet the vast majority of them perished in the wilderness.<br /></span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Nothing is predetermined. God may have an amazing destiny set in place for His people, but the choice is always ours.<br /></span><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></div><div style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Many are misled by what they think "predestination" means. The earliest writers who were taught by the Apostles and their followers knew that the idea that ones destiny is predetermined, came out of Greek philosophy and Gnosticism. Not Scripture.</span></div><p class="p1" style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-6803336075574127172022-11-26T13:25:00.004-05:002022-11-28T15:26:38.125-05:003 Common Misconceptions About Water Baptism<p><b><br /></b></p><p><b></b></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><b><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiBe5SszyDrn0svp9JP8ubcOwm9YGRcjWuUf7mrzBKV7MiN1d_u35lViknqKX-ANPm4ZeimchN6lQA_7Ht2w0cLmMlzQ9nyGk_SDm5NC4bNGWpc2v4yEhwcalf7H7XhFAc67Lz_KdR1dmF9bjMpA33ZVqrWU5WkmbozCA5aHSQFvkrY03c8xg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="194" data-original-width="259" height="462" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiBe5SszyDrn0svp9JP8ubcOwm9YGRcjWuUf7mrzBKV7MiN1d_u35lViknqKX-ANPm4ZeimchN6lQA_7Ht2w0cLmMlzQ9nyGk_SDm5NC4bNGWpc2v4yEhwcalf7H7XhFAc67Lz_KdR1dmF9bjMpA33ZVqrWU5WkmbozCA5aHSQFvkrY03c8xg=w615-h462" width="615" /></a></b></div><b><br /></b><p></p><p><b>Q: when Jesus died he said it is finished. Baptism is an outward sign to the world that you are following Jesus not a prerequisite or Jesus would not have said it is finished.</b></p><p>A: What exactly did he mean when he said “IT” is finished? He meant the Law. He completed the work of sacrifice for sins eternally. You are conflating two distinct topics. The Bible does not say that baptism is an outward sign to the world…etc. That is a teaching found in modern evangelical church culture. Read EVERY scripture on water baptism to discover what the true purpose is of baptism - that of entering into a covenant with Christ and receiving remission of sins (Acts 2:37-39). The same Jesus who said it is finished also said “he that believes and is baptised shall be saved”. One cannot selectively apply scripture to fit one’s doctrinal bias. Sola Scriptura! </p><p>Colossians 2 lays it out very well:</p><p>8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.</p><p>9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.</p><p>10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:</p><p>11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:</p><p>12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.</p><p>13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;</p><p>14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;</p><p>15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.</p><p>Read this again:</p><p>“…in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead”.</p><p>The covenant with Christ is entered into through water baptism, through faith in the resurrection - our sins are remitted. That means this is where God makes the transaction with the believer and the faith covenant is made. </p><p>Does this contradict popular church teaching and culture? Yes. Yet, it is what our Bible teaches us in plain sight if we only take time to study it.</p><p><b>Q: I was baptized at 3 weeks old (former catholic) holy Communion, confession etc. I hold the church in my heart. HE knows. Didn’t realize the church was within til 50 but it’s all clear now. </b></p><p>A. with respect to your tradition, there is actually no bible precedent for infant baptism. all examples we have show the candidate exercising belief in Jesus Christ, repentance from sin, and then being baptised (literally fully immersed in water or dunked, not sprinkled upon or anointed) in water to symbolize our voluntary indentification with Jesus’ death burial and resurrection which the bible calls “the circumcision of the heart”. It is where we make a conscious covenant with God as we seek the remission of our sins. (Acts 2:37-39). To do this effectively, one must be aware and capable of making this commitment at the time of baptism. Not confessing at that time to retroactively effectualize a baptism or dedication that did not come from the candidate but their proxies. In fact proxy baptism was corrected by Paul as incorrect. Since you believe in Jesus, I would encourage you that HE, and HIS spirit be inside you - not a church tradition. I would encourage you to find a pastor who will baptise you by immersion in Jesus name and therefore align yourself directly with the teaching of Jesus and his Apostles vs the traditions of men whom the bible says “make the power of God of none effect.”</p><p><b>Q. I always think about the thief on the cross…all he said was, “truly you are the Son of God”…and Jesus said, “today you will be with me in paradise”….no repentance, no baptism, I just BELIEVED! Thankful for God’s Grace!!!</b></p><p>A: this was under the law as Jesus had not yet died or arisen. Acts 2:37 begins our prescription for obedience to the gospel as taught by Jesus and his disciples. The thief died under the law prior to the atonement. And Jesus, being God incarnate, was the author of the law. The thief on the cross is a unique case, not prescriptive for conversion as a post-resurrection saint. We are commanded to repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Sins were not yet remitted by Jesus when the thief died. That’s why the verses prior to John 3:16 contain a predicate condition to Grace - that the Son of Man must first ascend. At the crucifixion, Jesus had not yet ascended. If you want to find folks in the NT to align to, follow the conversion examples found in the book of Acts ch 2, 8, 10, 19 where the apostles are found putting into action everything they were taught by Jesus. You will see water, spirit, repentance, and His Name (Jesus) as the common thread. This should unlock your understanding of John 3:3-6 regarding born again of water and of spirit. notice with each major conversion there is the element of water and spirit baptisms. explore this.</p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-41228840105818552862022-05-19T15:10:00.000-04:002022-05-19T15:10:04.247-04:00On Catholicism: The Chaplet of Divine Mercy<p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"> <span style="background-color: white;">A friend (Catholic 2) posted the following superstition on their social media wall:</span></span></p><div class="separator" style="background-color: white; clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjNj6alMUU88YfJ9Jceb59PR4JGg51R_Bdki8B2bDnAZN_FKzeWSDIfqq2aemNAuAsjbLItRP8CrbYoZA6vcpf74OqsYHd7SPck01D3D-dE0oTU47PQ4pIZgLfOMOzwvn5pHiWL/s1600/bunk.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="background: transparent; clear: left; color: #729c0b; display: inline-block; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: left; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><img border="0" height="300" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjNj6alMUU88YfJ9Jceb59PR4JGg51R_Bdki8B2bDnAZN_FKzeWSDIfqq2aemNAuAsjbLItRP8CrbYoZA6vcpf74OqsYHd7SPck01D3D-dE0oTU47PQ4pIZgLfOMOzwvn5pHiWL/s1600/bunk.jpg" style="border: 0px; height: inherit; max-width: 100%;" width="400" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br style="background-color: white;" /><br style="background-color: white;" /></span><div style="background-color: white; color: #141823; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 15px;"><form action="https://www.facebook.com/ajax/ufi/modify.php" class="live_10154944292845644_316526391751760 commentable_item autoexpand_mode" data-ft="{"tn":"]"}" data-live="{"seq":"10154944292845644_10154950654330644"}" id="u_jsonp_6_8" method="post" rel="async" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><div class="_5pcp _5vsi" style="color: #9197a3; margin-top: 10px;"></div></form></div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br style="background-color: white;" /></span><div style="background-color: white; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 15px;"><div class="_5r69"><div class="mtm" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div class="mtm plm _5pcm" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 10px; padding-left: 10px;"><div class="mtm _5pco" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div style="color: #666666; margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div style="background-color: white; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 15px;"><div class="_5r69"><div class="mtm" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div class="mtm plm _5pcm" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 10px; padding-left: 10px;"><div class="mtm _5pco" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div style="color: #666666; margin: 1em 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><blockquote>"Say unceasingly the chaplet that I have taught you. Whoever will recite it will receive great mercy at the hour of death. Priests will recommend it to sinners at their last hope of salvations. Even if there were a sinner most hardened, if he were to recite this chaplet only once, he would receive grace from My infinite mercy...At the hour of their death, I defend as My own glory every soul that will say this chaplet; or, when others say it for a dying person, the indulgence is the same."--Jesus to St. Faustina~</blockquote></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style="background-color: white; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 15px;"><div class="_5r69"><div class="mtm" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div class="mtm plm _5pcm" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 10px; padding-left: 10px;"><div class="mtm _5pco" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div style="color: #666666; margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">COMMENTARY AS FOLLOWS:</span></div><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><b><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Catholic Person 1</span></b></div><div style="color: #666666; margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944308930644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0" style="color: #141823;">The most offensive blood thirsty nonsense I've read in a long time is the completely pagan belief in the blood sacrifice and vicarious atonement … was NEVER a part of Jesus sacred teachings about God's Love …but was added in later by the Greeks and others who</span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944308930644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"> believed in blood sacrifice (Mithrites) for redemption…even Abraham the great …was told by God ….NOT to sacrifice his son …the message to the Jews ever after …GOD does not ever accept or ask for human sacrifice. ….</span></span></div><div style="color: #666666; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944308930644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><b><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Catholic Person 2</span></b></span></div><div style="color: #666666; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944308930644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">1. And all the sacrifices mentioned in the Bible???</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">2. Christ's Passion and death were His mission and way of teaching us of the Love, mercy and forgiveness, we'll find, when we turn to God.</span></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">3. Love God and Love others were Christ's great commandments.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">4. Or perhaps you dismiss Christ's presence in the Holy Eucharist?! A symbolic, yet real way to invite God to 'live' within you.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">To be considerate:</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944354525644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$18:0">Your feedback suggests a strong emotional reaction... Perhaps this isn't the best venue for an exchange of ideas?</span></span></span></span></span></div><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><b style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">RIVERFORUM</span></b></div><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$text0:0:$0:0"><b>To</b> <b>C</b></span><b>atholic Person 1</b><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">- in the case of Abraham, God did provide a blood sacrifice in the place of Isaac. The concept of the Atonement is woven all throughout the Bible from Genesis on. The book of Hebrews explains perfectly how Christ presents himself </span></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$0:0">eternally as the atonement. Read Hebrews 9 and 10. </span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$text0:0:$3:0" /><b>To Catholic Person 2</b><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"> Of note, the prayer beads are actually an eastern and later Hindu tradition. We are not supposed to pray to God with vain repetition (Matt 6:7) which is a pagan practice. <br /><br />Regarding that prayer you posted - it is actually a misrepresentation of Christian theology. We do not offer the blood, body and soul, etc of Christ to the Father. He offered himself once for us (Hebrews 9:14) and that is eternally sufficient. To continually offer atonement (symbolically, since we are not literally killing Christ) is an absurdity in the light of the Word. <br /><br />Regarding the Hail Mary - Jesus corrects those who would venerate Mary in Luke 27-29 citing that he agreed Mary was blessed, but that we should focus on following the Word of God instead. <br /><br />It also deals here with signs and visions. Remember that the serpent comes with "hath god said?". Subtly twisting meanings is the great error of Catholicism. My final thought on this prayer is this: </span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /></span></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div style="background-color: white; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 15px;"><div class="_5r69"><div class="mtm" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div class="mtm plm _5pcm" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 10px; padding-left: 10px;"><div class="mtm _5pco" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><i>Galatians 1:6-12</i></span></span></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="background-color: white; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 15px;"><div class="_5r69"><div class="mtm" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div class="mtm plm _5pcm" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 10px; padding-left: 10px;"><div class="mtm _5pco" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$6:0"><i>6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:</i></span></span></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="background-color: white; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 15px;"><div class="_5r69"><div class="mtm" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div class="mtm plm _5pcm" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 10px; padding-left: 10px;"><div class="mtm _5pco" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$10:0"><i>7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.</i></span></span></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="background-color: white; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 15px;"><div class="_5r69"><div class="mtm" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div class="mtm plm _5pcm" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 10px; padding-left: 10px;"><div class="mtm _5pco" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$14:0"><i>8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.</i></span></span></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="background-color: white; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 15px;"><div class="_5r69"><div class="mtm" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div class="mtm plm _5pcm" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 10px; padding-left: 10px;"><div class="mtm _5pco" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$18:0"><i>9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.</i></span></span></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="background-color: white; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 15px;"><div class="_5r69"><div class="mtm" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div class="mtm plm _5pcm" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 10px; padding-left: 10px;"><div class="mtm _5pco" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$22:0"><i>10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.</i></span></span></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="background-color: white; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 15px;"><div class="_5r69"><div class="mtm" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div class="mtm plm _5pcm" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 10px; padding-left: 10px;"><div class="mtm _5pco" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$26:0"><i>11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.</i></span></span></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="background-color: white; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 15px;"><div class="_5r69"><div class="mtm" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div class="mtm plm _5pcm" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 10px; padding-left: 10px;"><div class="mtm _5pco" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$30:0"><i>12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.</i></span></span></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style="background-color: white; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: 15px;"><div class="_5r69"><div class="mtm" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div class="mtm plm _5pcm" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 10px; padding-left: 10px;"><div class="mtm _5pco" data-ft="{"tn":"K"}" style="margin-top: 10px;"><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"></span></div><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="color: #141823;"><b><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></b></span></div><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="color: #141823;"><b><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Catholic Person 1</span></b></span></div><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$30:0"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944966465644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944966465644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">I love all the usual threats .. "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed " …. and so forth … Jesus never cursed anyone despite what the gospel revisionist w</span></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944966465644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944966465644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944966465644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">rote. I not only went to Catholic schools but attended seminary as well … So I know of all the threats issued that you quote. </span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">IF you really believe the whole of the New Testament or Old for that matter to be the ABSOLUTE word of God… There can be no discussion with you ,no reasoning or presenting the real truth to you. <br /><br />If Jesus blood has redeemed you then why do you still sin and have to go confess? <br /><br />If Jesus offered himself up as a blood sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind, and he is God, as you believe, then God committed suicide! <br /><br />Ridiculous you fundamentalists are. The word of God according to you or else we are accursed? <br /><br />When you have the love of God in your soul received through His holy spirit …. which I do, the truth is self evident. God is Love!</span></span></div><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><b style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Catholic Person 2</span></b></div><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944847560644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$30:0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944966465644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944966465644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944966465644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944998335644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944998335644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0"><b>To Catholic Person 1</b>What threats? ... and I don't remember Christ nailing himself to the Cross. Come on dude. <br /><br />I'm trying to have a conversation and exchange real ideas. And name calling? Fundamentalists? Buzz kill. And who said accursed? Asking for clarifi</span></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944998335644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944998335644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154944998335644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">cation rather than assuming/jumping to conclusions would help you honor your profession. <br /><br />After all, are you not supposed to be a teacher? I feel troubled with the tenor of your words. All this because I offered a prayer. Hmmm...</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="color: #141823;"><b><span style="font-family: helvetica;">RIVERFORUM to Catholic Person 1</span></b></span></div><div style="margin: 1em 0px; text-align: left;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0" style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">1 John 2:1-2. </span></span></div><div class="chapter-1" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px; margin-bottom: 10px; text-align: left;"><span class="text 1John-2-1" id="en-KJV-30552" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box;"><span style="background-color: yellow;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:</span></span></span></div><div class="chapter-1" style="-webkit-font-smoothing: antialiased; box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 24px; margin-bottom: 10px; text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: yellow;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">2 <span style="color: #141823;">And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.</span></span></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0" style="color: #141823;">To be a Christian is to be consistent with the Word of God. The Word of God is absolute. Men and institutions however are not. And the Catholics started getting it wrong around 325 AD with the council of Nicea. The point that Paul was making</span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"> to the church in Galatia above was that false teachings about Christ would arise and would lead people from the truth that the apostles were entrusted with and given the authority to teach. In Revelation we see an example of this in the Nicolaitan church. </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">My point in all of this is that tradition perverts the word of God and the primitive form of Christianity into nonsense. Jesus spoke of this in Matthew 15:6 - of the dangers of tradition nullifying the word of God making it impotent. </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Regarding the Greeks: The oldest and most authoritative codices are in Greek. The Latin Septuagint based on these. The interpolation of revisionism is typically a criticism reserved for the Catholic Church oddly enough. A prime example being the Johannine Comma of 1 John 5:7 which appears in the King James and I believe St Joseph's but not in the NIV as it was found to be a later addition brought in from the Septuagint - Latin. </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Another problem in Europe was the issue of feminine articles and nouns where Greek was neuter - this leading to all sorts of Marian traditions - such as the doctrine of the comediatrix deriving from the curse in Genesis. </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;">Again - my point is that for one to be a true Christian one must align to the text or else admit one's deviation from it. </span><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823;">The idea that reciting a prayer by wrote imputes grace is to cheapen the cross and put salvation into the hands of undeserving writers.</span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823;"><b><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Catholic 1</span></b></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">maybe trying praying with sincere faith and earnest aspiration to receive God's Love though the workings of His holy spirit instead of intellectualizing and see the difference between mental beliefs and being transformed by the Love of God.</span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><b style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">RIVERFORUM</span></b></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">I'm a believing spirit-filled Christian. Acts 2:37-39. So I am coming from a place of love and concern that fellow believers in Christ don't listen to poppycock. In fact I'm actually disambiguating the pseudo intellectualism of Catholicism. And I'm typically not this vocal. But when I see stuff this absurd I can't resist.</span></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8;"><b><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Catholic 2</span></b></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">What is so profound to me, (shocking really) are these reactions to what I've shared: a Divine Mercy prayer.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">You two are not atheists, but faithful believers. And yet the three of us are arguing over what? Divine Mercy? A prayer? The problems that you</span></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"> each have with Catholicism? Or is it Syntax? Semantics? Or belief? I really don't know.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">Calling Catholicism pseudo-intellectualism, doesn't resonate with me. And I really don't know WHAT you're talking about.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">Most of all, I'm just perplexed at what bothers you both about this Divine Mercy prayer?</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">None of us are religious scholars, though <b>Catholic 2</b> is a religious authority I respect. The best I can do is to speak from my experience of faith, having witnessed acts of God: miracles, signs and wonders.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">But (Riverforum) if you're coming from a place of love and concern, your word choices sure don't reflect that; phrases and judgments like 'poppycock' and 'stuff this absurd', would say otherwise.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$20:0">You make long arguments, but then muddy them with your ill characterizations. So now I must question how much you really care about the sharing of ideas when you write with such outrage.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$24:0">I'd rebuke you, but I'm not a spiritual advisor. As a friend, I'd ask that you share your views and opinions with more respect, so as to engender the same, rather than a dialogue that becomes nasty and seemingly fruitless. </span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$25:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$27:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$28:0">But it really is disheartening to see, and saddens me that you've taking this tone of righteous indignation and judgment.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$29:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$31:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$32:0">I've learned a lot by keeping an open mind, being respectful, and civil while I profess my faith, which, as you know, I've experienced. Being led to learn and find Christ in the world.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$33:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$35:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$36:0">It's my belief that only through compassionate interactions, speaking and acting with respect for one another, (& living the golden rule, and Christ's great Commandments) will we be able to grow together within the body of Christ, of which all faithful believers, and both of you, are apart.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$37:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$39:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948255850644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$40:0">I close with this: I believe in Divine Mercy (The opposite being, Divine Justice), and I believe that praying for Divine Mercy is, and has been for me, a really and truly wonderful experience.</span></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="color: #141823;"><b><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Politbanter</span></b></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948411025644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0" style="color: #141823;">Nothing really bothers me about it (the prayer) at all on a personal or emotional level. I'm just approaching it rationally as refuting false doctrine and teaching. People can do and believe whatever they like. I have no outrage at all. Whatsoever. I do keep an ope</span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948411025644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;">n mind and heart which goes out to folks led astray by false teaching. </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948411025644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">I too believe in God's mercy and if you feel that I've presented some points in a way that offends you, I'm sorry. Sometimes being as direct as possible is the best way to inform someone they care about that there is danger present. A good example might be in the case of a house fire behind a closed door. If one observer knows the fire is there and the other does not, would it not be appropriate for the one who knows to alert his friend as he attempts to open the door? All I'm trying to do here is show you how hot the doorknob is. The rest is up to you. </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948411025644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">I simply offered citations of scripture that contradicted the prayer. My only motive is to encourage you to free thought unshackled by tradition and superstition. If you aren't interested I don't have to share. No worries here.</span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="color: #141823;"><b><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Catholic 2</span></b></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Apology accepted.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">But how can you KNOW where I'm at in my spiritual life! Saying the handle is hot? That seems overly presumptuous and judgmental. It's precisely the issue I had/have with the Pentecostal Church. </span></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">I judge myself daily and go to the throne, to seek forgiveness for my sins. Yet for the Pentecostal Church, they judge other people without the love and compassion Christ's so known for.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">We cannot say if one is destined for hell's fire. As such, I think it's best, to refrain from any judgment, and I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. In fact, I like the idea, that everyone is more important than I am. I am but a humble servant of Christ, seeking to please God, and acting always with love.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">Of course I'm not perfect, which is why I pray for Divine Mercy, in hopes that on the day of my judgment, Christ will mediate the Divine Justice.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">This is what Divine Mercy and that prayer seeks to promote. Like Faith being known by works, we know at anytime, anyone can be redeemed.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$17:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$19:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$20:0">And speaking of false doctrine, that's why I keep an open mind, for I believe in the Proverb, 'to lean not on my own understanding.' As well, 'do you seek and fine, if you search with all your heart.'</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$21:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$23:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$24:0">Right now, the Catholic Church reflects best the faith experiences that I've had. I don't agree with all of the dogma and doctrine (look at the changes that Pope Francis has been making thankfully) so, I return to proverbs, 'to lean not on my own understanding.'</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$25:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$27:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$28:0">We are all a part of the body of Christ! Having discussions like this, is balm to my soul, as long as they're civil and thoughtful and shared with love.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$29:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$31:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$32:0">Faith is quite mysterious. And one's relationship with God, is unique. How we share our religious and spiritual experiences, participating in community and communion, all help us to grow in the body of Christ, and be closer to Christ. After all, that is one of the goals of being a Christian: to know Christ, and love God and the Holy Spirit, while hoping to be received in heaven.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$33:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$35:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$36:0">I don't know about you, but I never believe that my place is secure. Even though my works reflect my face, at least I hope they do, I still fall short of perfection, and how can I know for sure that I'm worthy of the lofty Heaven!?</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$37:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$39:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$40:0">Therefore, I continually strive to grow spiritually. And of course my individual walk with God, is different than either of yours. However, as we are Christian, a part of the body of Christ, we can speak of our faith, and speak of our love for God, and speak about spiritual enlightenment and epiphany.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$41:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$43:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948510130644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$44:0">This is one reason I shared the Divine Mercy prayer, because it's meaningful to me. And I hope it might be meaningful to other Christians. My experience in saying the prayer, hasn't been one of regurgitation of a set of sentences, it's been an amazingly rich spiritual experience empathizing and sympathizing with the passion of Christ, and trying to wrap my mind around the immensity of God's love, and Divine Mercy.<br /><br /></span></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><b style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">RIVERFORUM</span></b></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">My commentary is not about where you are at personally. I respect everyone's journey. I'm purely talking about church teachings. And I had/have the same issues with (other churches). I totally agree regarding compassion. </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">The "burning room" was perhaps a bad exampl</span></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">e as I wasn't implying hellfire. I think you are right to seek compassion, mercy, peace, humility. Sometimes people confuse when I am being direct about theology to mean I am being critical of them personally - I'm not. </span></span></span></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">I'm more bewildered actually about how a good and sincere man like yourself can align himself with an organization with such bloody and horrible sinful history of intolerance, brutality, abuse, and control. I think this is where the disconnect is for me in both knowing you and knowing the evil of that church - which is hard to reconcile. This is why I am so direct. </span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0">The doctrine and practice of that church is the heat of the door handle. And the result is the obfuscation of Grace by way of layered complexities of meaningless traditions, indulgences, rites, liturgies, and mysteries. All to perpetuate a system of belief that is so far removed from what Jesus and His apostles taught us that it is scary. </span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">That being said, I totally get and respect what you are seeking and sharing and why. I'm just tackling the theology here. Not your journey, experience, walk, or heart. I truly think your heart is in the right place and is motivated by love and compassion.</span></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><b><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Catholic 2</span></b></span></span></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$0:0">Yeah I understand about the history of the Catholic Church, and in general the history of humans to act with such malice in the name of God.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.0.$end:0:$4:0">That being said, it's a reason why we're so grateful that Christ came to earth, precisely because human beings</span></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$0:0"> are so imperfect and sinful.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$1:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$3:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0">The Catholic Church shares a sacramental experience that I found to be very worthwhile and profound. That's a present experience, and not a historical one. And of course there are things as I mentioned, that I disagree with, but that doesn't stop me from the way I worship God, and where I worship God.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$5:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$7:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$8:0">I think it's a fundamental part of being a Christian, that people find communities to worship at, that feel good to them and that nourish them.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$9:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$11:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$12:0">Receiving spiritual nourishment is extremely important to one's faith experience in my opinion. The divine mercy prayer, among others, is one way in which I have experienced a movement of the Spirit.</span><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$13:0" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$15:0" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0">After all, isn't that what we most long for, to come to know the Holy Spirit?!</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><b style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">RIVERFORUM</span></b></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154945021255644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3" style="color: #141823;"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154948550005644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$4:0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0"><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154949892925644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.3.0.$end:0:$16:0"><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">To me, finding beauty in the Catholic Sacraments is like finding beauty in the swastika as an ancient Sanskrit symbol despite Hitler. Doesn't make sense.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><b style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Catholic 2</span></b></div><div style="background-color: white; margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8;">Interesting Comparison.</span></span><br /><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8;"><br /></span></span></span><b style="color: #141823;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">RIVERFORUM</span></b><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /><span style="color: #141823;"><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8;"><br /></span></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$0:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;">What's even more interesting is that neither of you engaged with the scriptures which i presented that dislodge the theology of this prayer. <b>Matthew 6:7, Hebrews 9:14, Luke 11:27-29, 1 John 2:1-2. </b></span><br /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$3:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$4:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;">Only <b>Gal 1:6-12</b> was addressed and it was really the least of my points - not to emphasis the curse, but to emphasize the fact that both men and angels have the capacity to preach false gospels and doctrine. These manifestations (in this case to Faustina) with unscriptural messages are simply <u>not</u> of God. </span><br /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$7:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$8:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;"><b>1 John 4:1</b> says we are to "try the spirits" to see whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. How do we try them? By the Word. </span><br /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$11:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$12:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;">We can know that they are not of God because the messages are contrary to God's word and the teaching of the Apostles - which is authoritative for the Christian. </span><br /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$15:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$16:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;">Christ told us this would happen:</span><br /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$19:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$20:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;">"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect". <b>Matthew 24:24</b></span><br /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$23:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$24:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;">Regarding scholarship - we are all commanded to be scholars of the Word of God. There is no NT biblical office of Scholar. Paul exhorted Timothy to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" <b>2 Timothy 2:15 </b> <br /></span><span style="background-color: #f6f7f8; color: #141823; line-height: 15px;"><br />God used an Ass to speak to Balaam, and poor fishermen to speak to us. I think you and I both have more qualification than these to understand the Word.</span><br /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$27:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$28:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;">There are no priests in the Christian Church. We are all priests and ministers of Christ <b>(1 Peter 2:9). </b></span><br /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$31:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$32:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;">We have one mediator between God and man and that is Christ Jesus. <b>(1 Tim 2:5)</b></span><br /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$35:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$36:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;">My closing thoughts are to urge you not to be deceived by the semblance of truth, thereby exchanging the real thing for a tradition of distorted liturgy and practice. These things, these peculiar teachings, are precisely what led that Church into the evil it was. </span><br /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$39:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$40:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;">In <b>Revelation 17</b>, John prophesied of the false church having its seat in Rome - the city of seven hills. Her priests are arrayed in scarlet and purple, is extraordinarily wealthy and ornate, and holds a chalice - the symbol of the eucharist (see image). He noted that this false church had headship over the great kings of the earth - a fine description of Europe until the Age of Napoleon. The most important though is that he described her as drunk with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Jesus. Catholicism has killed and tortured so many Christian saints who have stood for Christ and renounced their tradition - it is on the scale of genocide. </span><br /><br /></span><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjAdAbDVwBzqPWVVfXA7UhQSgqYCmcjdySbdGCOf8bBWXHxIm1Z1mvlKIbHG7r3Wo5zfHGhCvP8xEhxsojvCx9jHjOVbzWKiRFlx6CmQSjRIScxH4L2GxGoYeLDr8-rEDuLNvSm/s1600/whore-of-babylon-church.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="background: transparent; clear: left; color: #729c0b; display: inline-block; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><img border="0" height="169" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjAdAbDVwBzqPWVVfXA7UhQSgqYCmcjdySbdGCOf8bBWXHxIm1Z1mvlKIbHG7r3Wo5zfHGhCvP8xEhxsojvCx9jHjOVbzWKiRFlx6CmQSjRIScxH4L2GxGoYeLDr8-rEDuLNvSm/s1600/whore-of-babylon-church.jpg" style="border: 0px; height: inherit; max-width: 100%;" width="640" /></span></a></div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$41:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;" /><br data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$43:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;" /><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$44:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;"><br /></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$44:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;"><br /></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$44:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;"><br /></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$44:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;"><br /></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$44:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;"><br /></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$44:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></span><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$44:0" style="color: #141823; line-height: 15px;">If I could drag your soul, kicking and screaming, away from these false teachers I would. <br /><br />And THAT is the love of a brother.</span></span></div><div><span data-reactid=".53.1:3:1:$comment10154944292845644_10154951001875644:0.0.$right.0.$left.0.0.1:$comment-body.0.$end:0:$44:0" style="color: #141823; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, "lucida grande", tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 15px;"><br /></span></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-37051740533556007562022-05-15T19:27:00.005-04:002022-05-15T19:28:55.020-04:00Manifesting vs. Worship - Keys to Living your best life<div class="kvgmc6g5 cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql ii04i59q" style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div dir="auto" style="font-family: inherit;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiM14KR0z0fRTPYd9Yrcl2PCfVYUQrBTH6zwTu87m-nyegp6zm82uPBSZ2cgSD11pIdGm0NnsAVJ2ghw4JdatJ-9WnsPPRdvWxNuO-qFi5J-JlK22lSsigR4Ab15sgxZFU0k5g5ITSg5AvReTxPioMzi0bp23Y44_FT8n4eF0SX73onJ7WE_g/s1246/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-16%20at%2012.27.09%20AM.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="650" data-original-width="1246" height="336" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiM14KR0z0fRTPYd9Yrcl2PCfVYUQrBTH6zwTu87m-nyegp6zm82uPBSZ2cgSD11pIdGm0NnsAVJ2ghw4JdatJ-9WnsPPRdvWxNuO-qFi5J-JlK22lSsigR4Ab15sgxZFU0k5g5ITSg5AvReTxPioMzi0bp23Y44_FT8n4eF0SX73onJ7WE_g/w643-h336/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-16%20at%2012.27.09%20AM.png" width="643" /></a></div><br /><b><br /></b></div><div dir="auto" style="font-family: inherit;"><b><br /></b></div><div dir="auto" style="font-family: inherit;"><b>Q:
</b>
I’m looking to find a guided visualization exercise or meditation that can help shift me out of focusing on what I don’t have and focusing on the life that I want to manifest. I’m looking for something that helps me visualize specifically what I want to call in. Lately I have found that I am dwelling on what I don’t have, and feeling bad about it. Being in this scarcity mindset is preventing me from seeing all the blessings in my life, and enjoying what I do have. And as a result I’m calling in more of what I don’t want.</div></div><div class="cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql o9v6fnle ii04i59q" style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "system-ui", ".SFNSText-Regular", sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div dir="auto" style="font-family: inherit;">In the past what has helped is doing guided visualizations that focus specifically on the life I want to be living in the feelings that I want to be feeling. <span style="font-family: inherit;">I’m ok:) just looking to manifest the life I want in this time of change!</span></div></div><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505;"><br /></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505;"><b>A: </b></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505;">I find sometimes its helpful not to overthink things, but to realize that a scarcity mindset is actually an attachment mindset. When we attach to things, stuff, money, etc. the lack thereof produces anxiety and fear.</span></span></p><div class="cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql o9v6fnle" style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">In Exodus 4, when God asked Moses to go before Pharaoh, risking death, to ask him to free the Israelites, Moses balked because he felt he was unworthy citing that no one would believe him. Moses was looking at his own inadequacies. Instead of acknowledging Moses' scarcity mindset, God challenged Moses saying - "what is in your hand?" and he answered "a rod (staff)". And we all know what Moses did with that staff.</span></div></div><div class="cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql o9v6fnle" style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">If we stop looking at our scarcity, and surrender even what little we do have to God, he can do great things through us.</span></div></div><div class="cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql o9v6fnle" style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">In 1 Kings 17 Elijah was traveling drinking only river water and being brought food by ravens. He met a woman and all she had was a little bit of oil and a handful of grain. In her scarcity, she intended to make her last bit of bread and surrender to hunger and starvation. Instead, she surrendered the little she had to God by serving Elijah that last meal and in so doing God blessed her barrel of grain and her cruse of oil so that they never ran out.</span></div></div><div class="cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql o9v6fnle" style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Sometimes we are allowed to be brought to the brink so that we might truly understand that the Lord is the giver of all good things, he is Jehovah Jireh, our provider. He is our Creator. He made the earth and everything in it. We need not thank the Earth. In so doing, we worship the created thing more than the Creator. The Earth is not our source. God is. By acknowledging God as our Creator, and placing faith in Him, not in the things he created, or that we have fashioned, and being thankful for what we have - He will bless even what little you do have and lead you to a path of abundance.</span></div></div><div class="cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql o9v6fnle" style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">My advice is to begin by worshiping - praising and thanking God for what you DO have and ARE gifted with in terms of your capabilities, and then seek his will on how you should apply them through prayer. Ask Him to impart wisdom to you that you might better understand how to use what is at your disposal to begin a life of increase.</span></div></div><div class="cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql o9v6fnle" style="background-color: #f0f2f5; color: #050505; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Be blessed.</span></div></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-452265238851024192022-05-15T09:11:00.005-04:002023-08-08T23:14:36.134-04:00Is the Catholic Hail Mary (Ave Maria) Prayer Biblical?<p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiguMZqoStjsBhNfcOC3IFmpdPJ8t1u0vxTjjlioCeqYeClV_ZbUw7RCFdBSiBLNMD4dgfPbl9W39dIhhmardmUMLidI2uFZy_2mn_Pb1kxIxlaqv0Azzkp-oziEXT8pZJYs7nxUdnrrjOPQDZZNXAB_AoIl9QUeVnJ2-0Pa4bg21nwYkSrew/s2210/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-15%20at%202.35.02%20PM.png" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1160" data-original-width="2210" height="325" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiguMZqoStjsBhNfcOC3IFmpdPJ8t1u0vxTjjlioCeqYeClV_ZbUw7RCFdBSiBLNMD4dgfPbl9W39dIhhmardmUMLidI2uFZy_2mn_Pb1kxIxlaqv0Azzkp-oziEXT8pZJYs7nxUdnrrjOPQDZZNXAB_AoIl9QUeVnJ2-0Pa4bg21nwYkSrew/w619-h325/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-15%20at%202.35.02%20PM.png" width="619" /></a></span></div><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div></span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Comment and question from a Catholic: <br /><br />In Luke 1:28. Gabriel says to Mary "Hail, thou art highly favored, the Lord is with thee...</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>First part of the Hail Mary is ....Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee, blessed are you among woman and blest is the fruit of your womb. <br /><br />Second part which is manmade: asking us for the Mother of God to pray for us now during this journey on earth and at the hour of our death, when the devil has one last chance to get your soul. "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us now and at the hour of our death. Amen" <br /><br />Q: So, isn't the prayer of the Hail Mary, scriptural?</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>A. It depends what you mean by "scriptural"</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">If by "scriptural" one means "loosely based on bible concepts", then the answer is "somewhat." If by "scriptural" one means "aligned to what is expressly taught in the Bible", the answer is no. The "Hail Mary Prayer" It is a Catholic tradition/practice based on several unscriptural or extra-biblical concepts first appearing around 1495 - that's right, 1495 years AFTER the birth of Christ and roughly 1451 years after the death of Mary. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">First, In the Catholic prayer there is the conspicuous use of the word "Hail", which in a modern sense we use as a synonym for "praise", not dissimilar to the German use of "heil" used as a root in the terms "heilig" (holy) and "heiligen" (sanctified) - denoting high praise or worship.<br /></span><em style="background-color: white; box-sizing: inherit; font-family: adelle, Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 16px;"><br /></em></p><blockquote><em style="background-color: white; box-sizing: inherit; font-family: adelle, Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 16px;">"Heil</em><span style="background-color: white; font-family: adelle, Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 16px;"> really means salvation, and used to be applied to relations between man and his God; one would speak of </span><em style="background-color: white; box-sizing: inherit; font-family: adelle, Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 16px;">ewiges Heil</em><span style="background-color: white; font-family: adelle, Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 16px;"> (eternal salvation), and the adjective “holy” derives from the noun." - </span><em style="background-color: white; box-sizing: inherit; font-family: adelle, Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 16px;">School for Barbarians: Education Under the Nazis by Erika Mann (1938)</em><span style="background-color: white; font-family: adelle, Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 16px;"> </span></blockquote><span style="background-color: white; font-family: adelle, Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 16px;"></span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">However, The original Greek in </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Luke 1:28 </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">does not translate accurately to the english word "Hail" as in "All Praise". or as the prayer suggests, "<b>Hail</b> Mary Full of Grace the Lord is with you." </span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The source word here in Greek is Chairos "χαίρω" which means "rejoice", not "Hail" The angel was not praising her, but commanding her to "Rejoice, and be delighted" Why? (because) the Lord waas with her. Let's look at the source text:</span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The VERBATIM original Greek of [1] Luke 1:27-28 is actually:</span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"></span></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">27 πρὸς παρθένον ἐμνηστευμένην ἀνδρὶ ᾧ ὄνομα Ἰωσὴφ ἐξ οἴκου Δαυὶδ καὶ τὸ ὄνομα τῆς παρθένου Μαριάμ.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">28"καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν·χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ."</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Which actually translates to: </span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"></span></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">27 "<b>To</b> (πρὸς) <b>the virgin</b> (παρθένον) <b>espoused</b> (ἐμνηστευμένην) <b>man</b> (ἀνδρὶ) <b>of</b> (ᾧ) <b>name </b>(ὄνομα) <b>Joseph</b> (Ἰωσὴφ) <b>from the</b> (ἐξ) <b>house</b> (οἴκου) <b>David</b> (Δαυὶδ) <b>and</b> (καὶ) <b>the</b> (τὸ) <b>name</b> (ὄνομα) <b>was</b> (τῆς) <b>of the virgin</b> (παρθένου) <b>Mariam</b> (Μαριάμ)</span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">28 "<b>And </b>(καὶ), <b>entered/came</b> (εἰσελθὼν) <b>to</b> (πρὸς) <b>her</b> (αὐτὴν) <b>said/saying</b> (εἶπεν) "<b>Rejoice</b> (χαῖρε), <b>be delighted</b> (κεχαριτωμένη), <b>the</b> (ὁ) <b>Lord</b> (κύριος) <b>is with</b> (μετὰ) <b>thou</b> (σοῦ)." </span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Taken together in modern English, these verses ACTUALLY render:</span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"></span></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">27 To the virgin engaged (to the) man named Joseph from the house of David whose name is Mariam, </span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">28 and (the angel) and came to her saying "Rejoice, and be delighted, because the Lord is with you."</span></p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The actual scripture does not at all say:</span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">"Hail Mary, full of Grace...", it says <br /><br /></span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">"Rejoice and be delighted..."</span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b><br />So why do the common English Bibles not have the proper translation?</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The problem with both the Protestant King James Version and the Catholic Douay-Rheims Bibles is that they relied on the <b>Latin Vulgate</b> which was a translation of the Greek into Latin and THEN into English. vs directly from Ancient Greek *the source language, into English. </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">(Also keep in mind that the first English (Tyndale) Bible wouldn't be printed until 1535 - 40 years after the first appearance of the Hail Mary prayer. It too relied on the Vulgate vs source texts)</span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: large;">So for verse 28:</span></p><p><span></span></p><a name='more'></a><p></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>The Original Greek says:</b> <br /><br />"καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν·χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.", or <br />"</span><span face="Roboto, RobotoDraft, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color: white; color: #5f6368; font-size: 15px;">kaí eiselthón prós aftín eípen:chaíre, kecharitoméni, o kýrios metá soú."</span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>which in English means, </b><br /><br />"and came to her saying "Rejoice, and be delighted, because God is with you."</span></p><p><span></span></p><!--more--><p></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>The Catholic Latin Vulgate says</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">"et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit have gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus"</span></p><p><b style="font-family: helvetica;">which in English means,</b></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">"and the angel went in to her and said, "Have full grace! The Lord is with you, blessed are you among women"</span></p><p><span></span></p><!--more--><p></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>The 1611 Anglican English King James Version (based on Latin Vulgate) says</b>:</span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."</span></p><p><span></span></p><!--more--><p></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>The 1899 Catholic English Douay-Rheims Bible (based on Latin Vulgate) says:</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">"And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."</span></p><span><!--more--></span><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The original Greek texts itself <u>never say</u> "Hail Mary". or "Venerated Mary", "Favored Mary", or "Honored Mary". Neither does it say that she is full of grace. N</span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">or that she blessed among or above all other women.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">These additional teachings thus wormed their way into the translations altering the actual writings of Luke to align </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">to the erroneous teaching of the Catholic church in the middle ages. Errors now, any serious person of faith can easily reject.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Q: What about asking the Virgin Mary to pray for us?<br /></b><br /><b>A: To answer this, we must first answer the following subquestions:</b></span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Q1: When we pray to Mary, are we asking someone who is alive or dead to pray?</b></span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>A1: Mary died around 41-44AD, most likely in Ephesus with John.</b></span> <span style="font-family: helvetica;">Hyppolitus of Thebes records that Mary lived for 11 years after the death of Jesus placing her </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">death around 41-44 AD </span> </p></blockquote><p></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Q2: Was Mary a perpetual virgin after the birth of Christ?</b></span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>A2: No. </b>Jesus had 4 brothers: James, Joses, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55) and several unnamed sisters (Mark 6:3)</span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><b><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Q3: Can dead people in heaven even hear our prayers, speak, act, pray?</span></b></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>A3: No.</b> <b>Seeking to make contact with the dead is called Necromancy. </b></span> </p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Necromancy is forbidden by God (Deuteronomy 18:9-12). </span> </li></ul><p></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Jesus taught us in the parable of Lazarus (Luke 16:26) that the dead are powerless and unable to pass between either heaven and hell, or between death and life to perform any act of mercy; </span> </li></ul><p></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">the angels at Jesus tomb rebuked the women for seeking the living (Jesus) among the dead. (Luke 24:25);</span> </li></ul><p></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">King Saul's attempt to make contact with the dead prophet Samuel through the witch of Endor was treated as a wicked act of necromancy. (1 Samuel 28);</span> </li></ul><p></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The dead do not pray, worship, or speak to God. (Psalm 115:17);</span> </li></ul><p></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;"> The dead do not retain their knowledge or memory after death (Eccl. 9:5)</span> </li></ul></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;"> There is only ONE who is risen eternally from death, Jesus Christ and he is the mediator between God and Man. (1 Timothy 2:5)</span> </li></ul></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Christians do not seek dead people to intercede for them. Nor do they intercede for the dead. In fact, proxy baptism for the dead was begun in the Corinthian church and Paul condemned it. (1 Cor. 15:29)</span></li></ul></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><ul style="text-align: left;"><li> <span style="font-family: helvetica;">The living cannot pray the dead out of damnation. (Hebrews 9:27) There is no intermediate between heaven and hell, no purgatory. (Luke 16:26) Purgatory is an invention of author Dante Alighieri. It is not found in scripture.</span></li></ul></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="text-align: left;"><b><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Q4: Is Mary "Holy"? </span></b></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>A4: No. </b>Only God is Holy.<b> </b>All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Mary was in the upper room with the rest of the disciples waiting to be filled with his spirit.</span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Q5: Is Mary the "Mother of God"</b></span></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>A5: Certainly Not. </b>God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. He is without beginning or end. To say that Mary is the Mother of God is to say that God was created. To do so would also be polytheism. For, if God was created by God in Mary is there then a second God? The Bible explains that the eternal invisible God became incarnate. The avatar of God, the man Jesus of Nazareth, had an earthly mother. His deity was not birthed. Only his humanity. To say Mary is the "Mother of God" is theologically incorrect. God is an eternal spirit without origin, infinite, and who exists unbound by the constructs of time and matter. The concept of birthing a God is borrowed from Hellenistic Mythology.</span> </p></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Q: Was Mary a blessed woman for being given the privilege of giving birth to Jesus?</b><br /><br /><b>A: Of course. What an honor!</b><br />Her sister Elizabeth prophesied under the unction of the Holy Spirit in Luke 1:42 calling her blessed: "</span><span face="system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Noto Sans", sans-serif, Arial" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!</span><br /><br /><br /><b><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Q: So does that mean we should honor Mary in our prayers? </span></b></span></p><p><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 16px;"><b>A: No. </b> <br />Jesus himself turns our attention away from venerating his mother and says RATHER, or INSTEAD those who are blessed are the hearers and doers of the the word of God - HIS words.</span></p><p><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 16px;"></span></p><blockquote><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><span face="system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Noto Sans", sans-serif, Arial" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;"><b>Luke 11:27-28</b><br /></span><span class="text Luke-11-27" face="system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Noto Sans", sans-serif, Arial" style="background-color: white;"><b><span style="font-size: x-small;">27</span><span style="font-size: 19.2px;"> </span></b></span><span class="text Luke-11-27" face="system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Noto Sans", sans-serif, Arial" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;">As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!” <br /></span><span face="system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Noto Sans", sans-serif, Arial" style="background-color: white;"></span><span class="text Luke-11-28" face="system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Noto Sans", sans-serif, Arial" id="en-RSV-25423" style="background-color: white;"><span class="versenum" style="display: inline; font-weight: 700; line-height: normal; position: relative; top: auto; vertical-align: text-top;"><span style="font-size: x-small;">28</span></span><span class="versenum" style="display: inline; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 700; line-height: normal; position: relative; top: auto; vertical-align: text-top;"> </span>But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”</span></span></blockquote><span class="text Luke-11-28" face="system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Noto Sans", sans-serif, Arial" id="en-RSV-25423" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;"></span><p></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Q: Is it wrong then, to pray the "Hail Mary" prayer</b><br /><b><br />A: Yes. For a couple of reasons</b></span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><ol style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; color: black; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration-color: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;"><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;"> We are only to pray to God directly, for ourselves (Hebrews 4:16)</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The dead are unable to hear our prayers (Ecclesiastes. 9:5)</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The dead are unable to pray for us (Psalm 115:17)</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The dead are unable to impact both the living world, or souls in the alternate disposition of heaven or hell (Psalm 115:17)</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;">It is a SIN to try and interact with the dead (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)</span></li><li><span style="font-family: helvetica;"> We are not to repeat the same lifeless prayers repetitively (Matthew 6:7) </span></li></ol><p><span face="system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Noto Sans", sans-serif, Arial" style="background-color: white; font-size: 16px;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 16px;"><b>IN SUMMARY</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Our understanding of Mary, the mother of Jesus, needs to be consistent with the Scriptures which declare her. </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The message of Christ, is that ONLY God is to be hailed/venerated, and only God is good/full of Grace. </span><span style="font-family: helvetica;">May the TRUE Word of God illuminate your prayer life. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b>Why does it matter?</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Saying a Hail Mary prayer has no basis in scripture and certainly has no penitential power to absolve the soul from sin. It is based on several subtle and and not so subtle false teachings based on Catholic dogma and tradition - not on the Bible itself or the practices of the early church. <br /><br />And, when we get down to the brass tacks of it, Seeking intercession from the dead on behalf of the living is considered necromancy along the lines of witchcraft. Reversed, trying to pray the dead out of a mythical purgatory which doesn't exist is a very harmful doctrine that was historically used to manipulate and prey upon faith filled believers into paying money, buying candles, and performing other manipulated acts of service to the church as if these works would buy their loved ones out of spiritual torment. Such believers were forbidden access to the Bible to read for themselves about the truth of things. Defying the doctrine Catholic church back in those times wasn't just an act of free will, it was often a death sentence, or an invitation for the inquisition to torture you, take your land and property. Certain protestant sects were no better.<br /><br /><i>Sola Scriptura.</i> Scripture alone must be our foundation. Not vestigial church traditions and dogmas or creeds. We must put these things behind us and embrace God's word above all else.<br /><br /><b>Bottom Line:</b></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;">The Hail Mary prayer and Ave Maria song, for all their poetic merits, are simply tools of false Catholic indoctrination that directly contradict the Bible and the express teachings of Jesus and his Apostles. <br /><br />Now that you know these things, I encourage you to draw closer to God by abandoning these practices and taking a new approach to prayer - talk directly to Jesus and cast your cares upon Him. <br /><br />He will meet you where you are and you will begin to see your prayer take on new life and energy as answers will actually come. Ask, Seek, Knock. Stop trusting your clergy and READ your Bible for yourself.</span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Noto Sans", sans-serif, Arial; font-size: 16px; line-height: 2.4rem; min-width: 0px;"><span class="text Matt-7-7" id="en-KJV-23324"><span class="versenum" style="display: inline; font-size: 1.2rem; font-weight: 700; line-height: normal; position: relative; top: auto; vertical-align: text-top;">Matthew 7:7-8 <br /></span>Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. </span>For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened.</p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b>[1] Greek Bible: Novum Testamentum Graece - Textus Majorus.</b></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"></span></p><p class="p1" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><a href="https://www.academic-bible.com/en/online-bibles/novum-testamentum-graece-na-28/read-the-bible-text/bibel/text/lesen/stelle/52/10001/19999/ch/a7a6a1c4e8504bc34de6175e6bdb49aa/">https://www.academic-bible.com/en/online-bibles/novum-testamentum-graece-na-28/read-the-bible-text/bibel/text/lesen/stelle/52/10001/19999/ch/a7a6a1c4e8504bc34de6175e6bdb49aa/</a></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></p><p><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><br /> </span></p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-81994350534503066402022-05-15T06:38:00.003-04:002022-05-15T06:52:42.027-04:00 Was Mary Magdalene the Secret Wife of Jesus?<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjIyKSuM1w2VnJMxPIr6yiMlIHCwYsIQucDsoVE-ilW1alt5O7g7B_g9e3fVZZpnX1orBVyw86NXmC5Vj-THwgHo0aY4DoPzp6qw2V8BrV7woXf2O7C6V7Rf1_mT8j7xCBfypeIM0mPghPFz6V-ThkKlIsIvwNLYmFX_dWB5ZwkWIWdvzJEKg/s1218/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-15%20at%2011.39.29%20AM.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="786" data-original-width="1218" height="404" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjIyKSuM1w2VnJMxPIr6yiMlIHCwYsIQucDsoVE-ilW1alt5O7g7B_g9e3fVZZpnX1orBVyw86NXmC5Vj-THwgHo0aY4DoPzp6qw2V8BrV7woXf2O7C6V7Rf1_mT8j7xCBfypeIM0mPghPFz6V-ThkKlIsIvwNLYmFX_dWB5ZwkWIWdvzJEKg/w624-h404/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-15%20at%2011.39.29%20AM.png" width="624" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p><p class="p2" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 11px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span style="font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: 0.2px;"><b>Answer: No.<br /><br /><br />We know from reading our Bible, some things that Mary Magdalene was NOT=</b></span></p><ul style="text-align: left;"><li><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: x-small;">A harlot, as described by either of the 6th century teachings of Pope Gregory attributing her as the woman with the alabaster jar</span></span></li><ul><li><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: x-small;">Explored (<a href="https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/who-was-mary-magdalene-119565482/" target="_blank">HERE</a>) in this Smithsonian Article</span></li></ul><li><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: x-small;">As described Gnostic Gospel of Mary (discovered in 1896, written in Sahidic Coptic included in the 5th century Berlin Codex (Akhmim Codex)). </span></span></li><ul><li><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: x-small;">Josh McDowell provides a good explanation for why Gnostic Gospels should not be canon (<a href="https://www.josh.org/lost-gospels-dont-belong-bible/" target="_blank">HERE</a>)</span></li></ul><li><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: x-small;">the wife of Jesus Christ - he was never married, nor had children. The church is the "bride" of Christ</span></span></li><ul><li><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: x-small;">Answers in Genesis provides a good evaluation of this claim (<a href="https://answersingenesis.org/jesus/was-jesus-married/">HERE</a>)</span></span></li></ul></ul><p></p><p class="p3" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 11px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 18px; min-height: 12px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br /></p><p class="p3" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 11px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 18px; min-height: 12px;"><b style="font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: 0.2px;">This is what we DO know about her.</b></p><p class="p3" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 11px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 18px; min-height: 12px;"><b style="font-size: 14px; letter-spacing: 0.2px;">During Jesus’ Ministry</b></p><p class="p5" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 18px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">- When Jesus is traveling and ministering in the cities of Galilee, the 12 disciples were with them along with some women which had all been healed of evil sprits and infirmities. Mary Magdalene was one of them - she has seven devils cast out of her (Luke 8)</span></p><p class="p4" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s2" style="letter-spacing: 0.2px;"><br /><b>At the Crucifixion and burial</b></span></p><ul class="ul1"><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Was present at the crucifixion observing from afar</span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Mary Magdalene came with Joseph of Arimathea from Galilee</span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Mary Magdalene was standing by the cross with Jesus’ mother Mary, Mary wife of Cleophas (John 19)</span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Joseph of Arimathea secretly asks Pilate for the body of Jesus to bury him and it is granted</span></li><li class="li5" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 18px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Nicodemus brings them spices of myrrh and aloe 100 pounds<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></li></ul><p class="p4" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s2" style="letter-spacing: 0.2px;"><b>At the burial</b></span></p><ul class="ul1"><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">After Joseph of Arimathea closed off Jesus’ tomb by rolling a great stone to the door of the sepulchre<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Mary Magdalene and Mary beheld (saw) where Jesus was laid.</span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Mary Magdalene and the other Mary sat against the sepulcher. (presumably to watch over the tomb until the chief priests and roman guards returned the next day to seal the stone in the entrance. (Matthew)</span></li><li class="li5" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 18px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Mary Magdalene came with Joseph of Arimathea from Galilee, prepared the body as the Sabbath drew on. They saw the tomb and how the body was laid. They returned back home to prepare spices and ointments, and they rested on the sabbath (Luke 23)</span></li></ul><p class="p4" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s2" style="letter-spacing: 0.2px;"><b>At the end of the Sabbath after the burial</b></span></p><ul class="ul1"><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Before dawn at the end of the sabbath toward the first day of the week Mary Magdalene and Mary came to the sepulcher. (Matthew 28)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Before dawn at the end of the Sabbath, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and found it empty (John 20)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">At the end of the sabbath they came to the sepulcher with the spices (Luke 23)</span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Salome was with them and they brought sweet spices to anoint the body (Mark 16)</span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">They said “who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulcher and when they looked they saw it was already rolled away. It was very great (Mark 16)</span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">They found the stone rolled away and they went into the tomb and Jesus was not there so they were confused. Then they saw two men in shining garments who said Jesus was risen. (Luke 23)</span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">There was an earthquake and an angel rolled back the stone and sat upon it. The angel was like lightening with clothing as white as snow, the grave keepers passed out, the angel speaks to Mary Magdalene and Mary, shows them the empty grave, and commands them to tell the disciples that Jesus is risen from the dead. And that he will appear to them in Galilee. (Matthew)</span></li><li class="li5" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 18px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">They went into the sepulcher and saw a man sitting in there on the right side clothed in a long white garment and they were scared. He tells them Jesus is risen and shows them where the body was. He instructs them to tell the disciples and go to Galilee to meet Jesus. (Mark 16).<br /><br /></span></li></ul><p class="p4" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s2" style="letter-spacing: 0.2px;"><b>Leaving the tomb</b></span></p><ul class="ul1"><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">They ran away afraid and didn’t tell anybody. (Mark 16)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene, out of whom Jesus cast seven devils. She tells the disciples and they don’t believe her (Mark 16) (Luke 8) Jesus appears to two others who tell the rest and they don’t believe. And then Jesus appears to them all and scolds them for not believing and going to Galilee</span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">They ran to tell the disciples and as they did, Jesus appears, they worship Him. He reassures them and tells them to instruct the disciples to go to Galilee.</span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Of their own accord, the women came back and told the 11 “apostles” and to all the rest that Jesus was risen and they were not believed. Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary, and other women that were with them told the apostles. They did not believe it. (Luke 24)</span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Mary Magdalene runs away and comes to Peter and John and says they have moved the body and we don’t know where it is. Peter and John come to the tomb. John outruns Peter and stoops down to look into the tomb. Peter arrives, they both go in and see linen clothes folded but no body. They went home.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Mary Magdalene was standing outside crying, stoops down to look inside the tomb and sees two angels. They ask her why she is crying and she says she doesn’t know where the body of Jesus is. She turns around and Jesus appears to her. She thinks she is the gardener and asks him where Jesus’ body is. Jesus speaks her name and she realizes it is Jesus.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>He says not to touch him but to go tell the disciples. She does.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Later that evening Jesus appears to them all. (John 20)</span></li><li class="li6" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s3" style="font-size: 14.4px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Paul says in 1 Cor 15:5-8 that Jesus appeared first to Cephas (Peter) and then to the disciples - makes no mention of Mary Magdalene</span></li></ul><p class="p4" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 8px;"><span class="s2" style="letter-spacing: 0.2px;"><b>After the Resurrection</b></span></p><p class="p8" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">- was likely counted among the women in Acts 1:14 as part of those collectively waiting and praying</span></p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-53307678917501296012022-05-15T06:03:00.003-04:002022-05-15T06:05:32.306-04:00Christian Service as an Act of Moral Love<p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj9avhtko9Bd3TGCtLmcrVpg5SH8LLKxTJPZXuECnqJQ-DYizQZtLetqK0NayCt4sG3hkra5dV7_uL0iOZtb_5zNORmGVDTiLzRieM1yt2Dyvn-vwubgocWtQnjIdhwBwOQCOYcTplQ1zGExH2xXVxj_cRvJcaRR1qMFs5tlqg7-qISKjPffw/s1604/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-15%20at%2011.04.03%20AM.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="900" data-original-width="1604" height="342" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj9avhtko9Bd3TGCtLmcrVpg5SH8LLKxTJPZXuECnqJQ-DYizQZtLetqK0NayCt4sG3hkra5dV7_uL0iOZtb_5zNORmGVDTiLzRieM1yt2Dyvn-vwubgocWtQnjIdhwBwOQCOYcTplQ1zGExH2xXVxj_cRvJcaRR1qMFs5tlqg7-qISKjPffw/w609-h342/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-15%20at%2011.04.03%20AM.png" width="609" /></a></div><b style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px;"><br /></b><p></p><p><b style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px;">Matthew: The Moral Basis of Scripture is Love</b></p><p class="p5" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 15px;"><span class="s2" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 18px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b>22</b></span><span class="s3" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 6px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup> </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">“Teacher, which <i>is</i> the great commandment in the law?”<br /></span><span class="s3" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 6px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>37 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love (</span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Ἀγαπήσεις</span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">) the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ <br /></span><span class="s3" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 6px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>38 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">This is <i>the</i> first and great commandment.<br /></span><span class="s3" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 6px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>39 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">And <i>the</i> second <i>is</i> like it: ‘You shall love (</span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Ἀγαπήσεις</span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">) your neighbor as yourself.’ <br /></span><span class="s3" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 6px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>40 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”</span></p><p class="p6" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 15px; min-height: 19px;"><b>Deuteronomy: How Important is Moral Love?</b></p><p class="p8" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 7.5px;"><span class="s2" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 18px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b>6 </b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">“Now this <i>is</i> the commandment, <i>and these are</i> the statutes and judgments which the Lord your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe <i>them</i> in the land which you are crossing over to possess, <br /></span><span class="s3" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 6px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>2 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">that you may fear the Lord your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. <br /></span><span class="s3" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 6px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>3 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Therefore hear, O Israel, and </span><span class="s5" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 5px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><sup>[</sup><a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=deuteronomy+6&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-5090a"><span class="s6" style="color: #a23822; font-kerning: none;"><sup>a</sup></span></a><sup>]</sup></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">be careful to observe <i>it,</i>that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the Lord God of your fathers has promised you—‘a land flowing with milk and honey.’<br /></span><span class="s3" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 6px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>4 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">“Hear, O Israel: </span><span class="s5" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 5px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><sup>[</sup><a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=deuteronomy+6&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-5091b"><span class="s6" style="color: #a23822; font-kerning: none;"><sup>b</sup></span></a><sup>]</sup></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">The Lord our God, the Lord <i>is</i> one! <br /></span><span class="s3" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 6px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>5 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.<br /></span><span class="s3" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 6px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>6 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">“And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. <br /></span><span class="s3" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 6px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>7 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. <br /></span><span class="s3" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 6px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>8 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. <br /></span><span class="s3" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 6px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>9 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.</span></p><p class="p2" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 17px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b></b></span><br /></p><p class="p2" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 17px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b></b></span><br /></p><p class="p9" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 16px;"><b style="font-size: 16px;">Leviticus 19:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>We are to Love Our Neighbor(s)</b><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span></p><p class="p5" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 15px;"><span class="s7" style="background-color: white; font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 6px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>18 </sup></b></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord</span></p><p class="p7" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 7.5px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b>Luke 10: Who then is/are Our Neighbor(s)?</b></span></p><p class="p8" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 7.5px;"><span class="s2" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 18px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b>10 </b></span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>25 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">And behold, a certain </span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><sup>[</sup><a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-25389h"><span class="s9" style="color: #a23822; font-kerning: none;"><sup>h</sup></span></a><sup>]</sup></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” </span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>26 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading <i>of it?</i>” </span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>27 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ”<br /></span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>28 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”<br /></span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>29 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”<br /></span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>30 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain <i>man</i> went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among </span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><sup>[</sup><a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-25394i"><span class="s9" style="color: #a23822; font-kerning: none;"><sup>i</sup></span></a><sup>]</sup></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded <i>him,</i>and departed, leaving <i>him</i> half dead. <br /></span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>31 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. </span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>32 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. <br /></span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>33 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. </span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>34 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">So he went to <i>him</i> and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. </span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>35 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">On the next day, </span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><sup>[</sup><a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-25399j"><span class="s9" style="color: #a23822; font-kerning: none;"><sup>j</sup></span></a><sup>]</sup></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave <i>them</i> to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ </span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>36 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”</span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>37 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”</span></p><p class="p8" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 7.5px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”</span></p><p class="p3" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 19px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b></b></span><br /></p><p class="p4" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b>Ways in which we Love Our Neigbor</b></span></p><p class="p3" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 19px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b></b></span><br /></p><ul class="ul1"><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s10" style="font-family: Symbol; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>Don’t bear false witness against another (Ex. 20:16)</b></span></li><ul class="ul1" style="list-style-type: disc;"><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s11" style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Starting or sharing Gossip/Rumors (Lev 19:16)</span></li><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s11" style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Lying, Slander, or Libel</span></li><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s11" style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Manipulating</span></li><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s11" style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Condemning<br /></span></li></ul><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s10" style="font-family: Symbol; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>Don’t envy or be jealous of someone else’s personal property<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(Ex. 20:17)</b></span></li><ul class="ul1" style="list-style-type: disc;"><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s11" style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Cars, Houses, Land, Boats, etc<br /></span></li></ul><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s10" style="font-family: Symbol; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>Don’t desire another person’s spouse (Ex. 20:17)</b></span></li><ul class="ul1" style="list-style-type: disc;"><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s11" style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Respect their relationship/partnership/marriage</span></li><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s11" style="font-family: "Courier New"; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">Do not have intimate relations with a married person (Lev 18:20)<br /></span></li></ul><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s10" style="font-family: Symbol; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>Don’t Harm People (Ex. 21:14)</b></span></li><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>Don’t unreasonably withhold wages for people you hire (Ex 19:13)<br /></b></span></li><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s10" style="font-family: Symbol; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>Don’t Defraud people you do business with (Ex 19:13)<br /></b></span></li><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s10" style="font-family: Symbol; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>Don’t steal from people<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(Ex 19:13)<br /></b></span></li><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s10" style="font-family: Symbol; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>Don’t hate people (Lev 19:17)<br /></b></span></li><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s10" style="font-family: Symbol; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>You can correct someone if<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span></li></ul><p class="p3" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 19px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b></b></span><br /></p><p class="p4" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b>What if I see my neighbor doing something bad?</b></span></p><p class="p3" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 19px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b></b></span><br /></p><ul class="ul1"><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s10" style="font-family: Symbol; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>You can correct them or offer advice so that they don’t make the mistake<br /></b></span></li><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s10" style="font-family: Symbol; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>You should not avenge the wrong done to someone else on their behalf (<br /></b></span></li><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s10" style="font-family: Symbol; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>You should not bear a grudge against them</b></span></li></ul><p class="p3" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 19px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b></b></span><br /></p><p class="p4" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b>What if I made a mistake and wronged my neighbor?</b></span></p><p class="p3" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 19px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b></b></span><br /></p><ul class="ul1"><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s10" style="font-family: Symbol; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>If you have wrongly stolen from someone, you must repay that person double the value of what you stole (Ex. 22:19)</b></span></li></ul><ul class="ul1"><li class="li11" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s10" style="font-family: Symbol; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>If someone lent you something and it broke on its own, or you were watching his/her pet and it got sick and died of natural causes – you are not obligated to repay the lender/owner</b></span></li></ul><p class="p3" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 19px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b></b></span><br /></p><p class="p4" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b>John 13: Is There a Biblical Pattern for How to Love?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span></p><p class="p16" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><span class="s2" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 18px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b>13 </b></span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup> “</sup></b></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">A new commandment I give unto you,<br /><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>That ye <b>love</b> (ἀγαπᾶτε)<b> one</b> <b>another</b>;<br /><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>as I have <b>love</b>d (ἠγάπησα) you,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p><p class="p5" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 15px;"><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>that ye also <b>love</b> (ἀγαπᾶτε)</span><span class="s12" style="font-family: Times; font-kerning: none; font-size: 10px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"> </span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;"><b>one</b> <b>another</b>.<br /></span><span class="s8" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 8px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br /><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>35 </sup></b></span><span class="s4" style="background-color: white; font-kerning: none;">By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,<br /><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>if ye have <b>love</b> (ἀγάπην) <b>one</b> to <b>another</b>.</span></p><p class="p6" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 15px; min-height: 19px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b></b></span><br /></p><p class="p7" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 16px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 7.5px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"><b>Matthew 12: Who is My Brother/Sister?</b></span></p><p class="p17" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 7.5px;"><span class="s2" style="font-family: Arial; font-kerning: none; font-size: 18px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b>10 </b></span><span class="s13" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 9.3px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>46 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">While he was still talking to the multitudes, behold, his mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with him. <br /></span><span class="s13" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 9.3px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>47 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">Then one said to him, “Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with you.”</span></p><p class="p17" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px 0px 7.5px;"><span class="s13" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 9.3px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>48 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">But he answered and said to the one who told him, “Who is my mother and who are my brothers?” <br /></span><span class="s13" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 9.3px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>49 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">And he stretched out his hand toward his disciples and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! <br /></span><span class="s13" style="font-kerning: none; font-size: 9.3px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal;"><b><sup>50 </sup></b></span><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;">For whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”</span></p><p class="p9" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 16px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br /></p><p class="p9" style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 16px;"><span class="s1" style="font-kerning: none;"></span><br /></p>Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-79179529530591506782022-05-15T06:00:00.003-04:002022-05-15T06:00:16.094-04:00An Atheist Went Walking in the Woods<p> An atheist was walking through the woods. 'What majestic trees!' 'What powerful rivers!' 'What beautiful animals!' He said to himself. As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly bear charging towards him.</p><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhV8gvAeYI7QFGlPEaRPE45CsDSs7RGk-vAKuB-SKmYj5ZIVmUntxReHYCX0tXKFt4_5cKvh1mXPG3s8YeJPVKtp7EXsHurjbdKkmaMu7hX3nU_1qXdkGBMYj0hDEYzZrJ8rGXM/s1600-h/image001.jpg"><img alt="" border="0" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5261543712768271138" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhV8gvAeYI7QFGlPEaRPE45CsDSs7RGk-vAKuB-SKmYj5ZIVmUntxReHYCX0tXKFt4_5cKvh1mXPG3s8YeJPVKtp7EXsHurjbdKkmaMu7hX3nU_1qXdkGBMYj0hDEYzZrJ8rGXM/s400/image001.jpg" style="cursor: pointer; display: block; height: 300px; margin: 0px auto 10px; text-align: center; width: 400px;" /></a>He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was closing in on him. He looked over his shoulder again, and the bear was even closer. He tripped and fell on the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but saw that the bear was right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to strike him.<br /><br /><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhH1fwtt7SRuYPR0NFUrNOH1Mc_4hSQPeLiQdg9OplZpxXlFN2PGxcmleAcZzrAWo4UgREDd_isIe-SzxUMdcQUwr2PbGUx45wlTb8CrRKbrHS0W8ByvfpXmSJhBhM9ipCqRlyu/s1600-h/image002.jpg"><img alt="" border="0" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5261543886213364258" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhH1fwtt7SRuYPR0NFUrNOH1Mc_4hSQPeLiQdg9OplZpxXlFN2PGxcmleAcZzrAWo4UgREDd_isIe-SzxUMdcQUwr2PbGUx45wlTb8CrRKbrHS0W8ByvfpXmSJhBhM9ipCqRlyu/s400/image002.jpg" style="cursor: pointer; display: block; height: 300px; margin: 0px auto 10px; text-align: center; width: 400px;" /></a>At that instant the Atheist cried out, 'Oh my God!' Time Stopped. The bear froze. The forest was silent. As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky. 'You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist, and even credit creation to cosmic accident. Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?' The atheist looked directly into the light and said, 'It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps you could make the BEAR a Christian?' 'Very Well,' said the voice. The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. And the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head & spoke:<br /><br /><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiQeZqsyfaWRdRiNCMOHXkqYdYdl77YpScD2ljsDvQAjaWVxx_FjwL5ytKmNoypFKcHlXRFRmkIDsjrtLon3wjDdF8un4jLQPsxh9qhtZCj8AACoGU8KmXlDKS8mEckcnft1zcc/s1600-h/image003.jpg"><img alt="" border="0" id="BLOGGER_PHOTO_ID_5261544036800382098" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiQeZqsyfaWRdRiNCMOHXkqYdYdl77YpScD2ljsDvQAjaWVxx_FjwL5ytKmNoypFKcHlXRFRmkIDsjrtLon3wjDdF8un4jLQPsxh9qhtZCj8AACoGU8KmXlDKS8mEckcnft1zcc/s400/image003.jpg" style="cursor: pointer; display: block; height: 300px; margin: 0px auto 10px; text-align: center; width: 400px;" /></a>'Lord bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen.'Unknownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16732541.post-75090006915796995232022-05-15T04:25:00.017-04:002022-05-15T10:24:36.349-04:00Days of Future Past: Understanding the Prophesies of Daniel 9-12<p style="text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;"></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjKoLMnOsnuCkHsfma9MdX3_u3qXoyfR56PwYz5OZqiE1t6bRlD7DekVkdYYD_USxFKUZAx7VX6c41aTTu4cwD2YpmXlaV0l9-tHcTlF2DJQOGewzJcj6HKv6nCM2nFgAFCFfGJW_BDqlTt9bu-r3kbWCsuTRJmm7PIloy-r5x66j1zgoXDfw/s2560/Jarvis-scaled.jpeg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1535" data-original-width="2560" height="292" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjKoLMnOsnuCkHsfma9MdX3_u3qXoyfR56PwYz5OZqiE1t6bRlD7DekVkdYYD_USxFKUZAx7VX6c41aTTu4cwD2YpmXlaV0l9-tHcTlF2DJQOGewzJcj6HKv6nCM2nFgAFCFfGJW_BDqlTt9bu-r3kbWCsuTRJmm7PIloy-r5x66j1zgoXDfw/w487-h292/Jarvis-scaled.jpeg" width="487" /></a></span></div><span style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;"><br /><b><br /></b></span><p></p><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;"><b>Q: Do the prophesies of Daniel apply to the Church Age? Should we be looking for the Jews to tear down the Al-Aqsa mosque, rebuild their temple, restore animal sacrifices for sin, and expect a future Anti-Christ to come and destroy it all, desecrating the temple?</b></span></p><p style="color: #050505; font-size: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><b>A: No. Because all of this has already happened.</b></span></p><p style="color: #050505; font-size: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;">None of these texts below refer to an End-Time anti-christ yet to come. They were written as prophesy for the people of the time of Christ and the words were fulfilled then by the end of the 1st century A.D. </span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><br /><br />Many end-time teachers use these scriptures incorrectly as a basis to predict things that are yet to come in our time and beyond - this because they lack a sound education in history and the major events of the Biblical past. </span></p><p style="color: #050505; font-size: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;">They are still <u>marvelous</u> as prophesy - to be written 400 years before the events happened, and with such staggering accuracy, is nothing short of <u>miraculous</u>.</span></p><p style="color: #050505; font-size: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;">A lot of the so-called "end time prophesies of" Daniel have already occurred from the time of Alexander the Great and the division of his empire after his death into four kingdoms through to the time of the Roman Empire under Titus. These are known to historians as the "<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diadochi">Wars of the Diadoch</a>i".</span></p><p style="color: #050505; font-size: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;">Halley’s Bible Handbook does a great examination on this, laying out a strong preterist case for Daniel 11 & 12.</span></p><div class="cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql o9v6fnle" style="margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; text-align: left;"><p style="color: #050505; font-size: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><b>Daniel 11:3</b> refers to Alexander and the eventual split of his kingdom into 4 realms: Ptolemy in Egypt; Seleucid in the east; Pergamon in Asia Minor (Turkey); and Macedonia. 11:42 refers to Ptolemy and the preceding verses describe nearly exactly the course of the 40 years of war after Alexander’s death until the stabilization of the regions. The divisions and subsequent wars played out exactly as Daniel predicted 400 years before they occurred.</span></p></div><div class="cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql o9v6fnle" style="margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; text-align: left;"><p style="font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; text-align: left;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><i>"After the <span class="s1">death of Alexander the Great</span> in 323 <span class="s1">BCE</span>, <span class="s1">Judea</span> became part of the <span class="s1">Ptolemaic Kingdom</span> of Egypt until 200 BCE when King <span class="s1">Antiochus III the Great</span> of <span class="s1">Syria</span> defeated King <span class="s1">Ptolemy V Epiphanes</span> of Egypt at the <span class="s1">Battle of Panium</span>. Judea then became part of the <span class="s1">Seleucid Empire</span> of Syria. King Antiochus III the Great, wanting to conciliate his new Jewish subjects, guaranteed their right to "live according to their ancestral customs" and to continue to practice their religion in the Temple of Jerusalem" (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanukkah" target="_blank">source</a>)</i></span></p></div><div class="cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql o9v6fnle" style="margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; text-align: left;"><div style="color: #050505; font-size: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></div><div style="color: #050505; font-size: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span></div><div style="color: #050505; font-size: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;">The evil king referred to in </span><b style="font-family: helvetica;">Daniel 11:36</b><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"> is Antiochus IV Epiphanes, of the Seleucid Empire, son of Antiochus III the Great. </span></div><p style="color: #050505; font-size: 15px;"></p><span style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;"><div class="cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql o9v6fnle" style="margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-dCpu6-tkc5oA14X1120AxDgsx8OFqNmRXbdx4AO2FzzyU9q9ejUHpVh0AIdRYLrGAYvJoORT7ElmrUe01sfaJZIoRT7CWHw7VwlRXXDZ_357T1Zq8Cbe8OGhaXQmIlVs1dEJ1tAaaoyqushSCyNRh5amPIF1UNrz6mzPWt8rhUT-Js08Wg/s500/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-15%20at%209.43.34%20AM.png" style="clear: left; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="358" data-original-width="500" height="200" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg-dCpu6-tkc5oA14X1120AxDgsx8OFqNmRXbdx4AO2FzzyU9q9ejUHpVh0AIdRYLrGAYvJoORT7ElmrUe01sfaJZIoRT7CWHw7VwlRXXDZ_357T1Zq8Cbe8OGhaXQmIlVs1dEJ1tAaaoyqushSCyNRh5amPIF1UNrz6mzPWt8rhUT-Js08Wg/w279-h200/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-15%20at%209.43.34%20AM.png" width="279" /></a> <br />This is an excellent presentation by Bruce Gore on Antiochus IV <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3W0d65FOPI">Watch Here</a></span></div><div class="cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql o9v6fnle" style="margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;"><br /></span></div>Antiochus IV nearly conquered post-Alexander Ptolemaic Egypt and also made his way into Judea and Samaria where he persecuted the Jews and fought the Maccabees during the inter-Testamental period (175-164 BCE).<br /></span><p class="p1" style="color: black; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b style="color: #050505; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;"><br /></b></p><p class="p1" style="color: black; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><b style="color: #050505; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;"><br /></b></p><p class="p1" style="color: black; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; font-size: 13px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh2H3hA6bf6t7CE0VFkgkbdIVjyjgiYQOj1-zXFJqKENSbmLEu4my2pGL8QdDyYFXLnya_7KnBSAmgIwGVVygLYl4QxqBWkMWRxrn9x5RkEvLyEdEG3tBKKoBRvk5qIi1XnaBgmofeYjHc6n7wwwSbUXy05c0qO-50Drucfp6iogSYxjOLNCA/s974/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-15%20at%2010.13.00%20AM.png" style="clear: left; float: left; font-size: medium; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="568" data-original-width="974" height="195" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh2H3hA6bf6t7CE0VFkgkbdIVjyjgiYQOj1-zXFJqKENSbmLEu4my2pGL8QdDyYFXLnya_7KnBSAmgIwGVVygLYl4QxqBWkMWRxrn9x5RkEvLyEdEG3tBKKoBRvk5qIi1XnaBgmofeYjHc6n7wwwSbUXy05c0qO-50Drucfp6iogSYxjOLNCA/w334-h195/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-15%20at%2010.13.00%20AM.png" width="334" /></a><br /><b style="color: #050505; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;"><br />Daniel 11:45</b><span style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;"> refers to the Greek Citadel called the </span><a href="https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/archaeologists-may-found-oppressive-fortress-acra-parkinglot.html?chrome=1&D3c=1&A1c=1" style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;" target="_blank">Acra</a><span style="background-color: white; color: #050505; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;"> he erected in Jerusalem.</span></p><p style="color: #050505; font-size: 15px;"><b style="font-family: helvetica;">Daniel 12:11</b><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"> refers to two events: 1) when Antiochus IV enters Jerusalem and outlaws animal sacrifice and other Jewish laws and customs, and then 1290 days later 2) when the Temple was "made desolate"</span></p></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div class="cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql o9v6fnle" style="color: #050505; font-size: 15px; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; text-align: left;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;">"In 167 BCE, Antiochus IV Epiphanes ordered an altar to Zeus erected in the Temple. He also, according to Josephus, "compelled Jews to dissolve the laws of the country, to keep their infants un-circumcised, and to sacrifice swine's flesh upon the altar; against which they all opposed themselves, and the most approved among them were put to death." (wikipedia citing Josephus)</span></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><div class="cxmmr5t8 oygrvhab hcukyx3x c1et5uql o9v6fnle" style="color: #050505; margin: 0.5em 0px 0px; overflow-wrap: break-word; text-align: left;"><p style="font-size: 15px;"></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; font-size: 15px; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhgkmJHDV4KLiIiv3PUeTtUL-E2YrbjXRHS70x1LJB0FixFxx2sKtrCQoSNpqHWAy90e6f6WN_eDPT589s8b3V9OEbsqB5S_fgoyiK1OhOgpSpJn1qyGh8Yp4gkOE_MrJBimWeQkd6XI6MeGk8vWGSOpSXk9fQHG4IQqb5bCZGmSo_XuGNDsA/s1392/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-15%20at%209.52.51%20AM.png" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1044" data-original-width="1392" height="240" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhgkmJHDV4KLiIiv3PUeTtUL-E2YrbjXRHS70x1LJB0FixFxx2sKtrCQoSNpqHWAy90e6f6WN_eDPT589s8b3V9OEbsqB5S_fgoyiK1OhOgpSpJn1qyGh8Yp4gkOE_MrJBimWeQkd6XI6MeGk8vWGSOpSXk9fQHG4IQqb5bCZGmSo_XuGNDsA/s320/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-15%20at%209.52.51%20AM.png" width="320" /></a></div><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;">From Antiochus IV Epiphanes onward to the time of Roman Emperor Vespasian's control over Judea, there would be no sacrifices for sin performed in the jewish high temple.</span><p style="font-size: 15px;"></p><p><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><span style="font-size: 15px;">Hannukah is celebrated by modern Jews in remembrance of the Maccabee's revolt against Antiochus, and their subsequent rededication of the temple. Judas Maccabee also rebuilt the walls as prophesied by </span><b style="font-size: 15px;">Daniel 9:25. </b><br /><span style="font-size: 15px;"><br /><span style="font-family: helvetica;"><b style="font-weight: bold;">(Daniel 9:25) </b><span>says</span><span> </span>"</span><span style="background-color: transparent; color: black;"><span style="font-family: helvetica;">Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." By the time of Christ, </span></span><span style="background-color: transparent;">John 10:22-23 </span><span style="background-color: transparent; font-family: helvetica;">depicts Jesus present for the Hannukah remembrance at Solomon's Colonnade (porch)</span></span></span></p><p></p><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><span style="font-size: 15px;">So <b>Daniel 9:25-26</b> takes us from the end of Antiochus' interference with the Jews around 167 BC, through the Maccabeeal period (between the Old and New Testaments) to the time of the birth of Jesus Christ, and the Roman occupation.</span></span></div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><span style="font-size: 15px;"><br />In fact, in accordance with </span><b style="font-size: 15px;">Daniel 9:26</b><span style="font-size: 15px;">, Jerusalem, and the Temple were destroyed utterly in AD 70 by Roman Emperor Vespasian's son and general, Titus. Titus eventually became Caesar himself and took on the name </span><b style="color: #202122; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Titus Caesar Vespasia</b><b style="color: #202122; font-size: small;">nus, </b><span style="color: #202122;">after his father.</span></span></div><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica; font-size: 15px;"><br />Josephus claims that because they were gathered for Passover, over 1.1 million jews were killed in Titus' Seige of Jerusalem (AD 70) and that "Titus and his soldiers celebrated victory upon their return to Rome by parading the Menorah and Table of the Bread of God's Presence through the streets."</span><br /><p></p><p style="font-size: 15px;"></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; font-size: 15px; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiu4m_-1U7keSqE0v2WAIGYuf_CHsJpdHI8u4LsUGzmFzKcl_f1_T9cJOdEM-NFVtpftp2LHzYKcwMYExmkvilPW_PMPMQ9IP6asH_Q0xPLTz2XE9_f0PEXeRYb4lNloxo4mvdga_pvNinsQ7RFTVMgIFpX-hd6el7r_fPw9MgCFu5jbidRMg/s1402/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-15%20at%209.53.09%20AM.png" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="784" data-original-width="1402" height="364" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiu4m_-1U7keSqE0v2WAIGYuf_CHsJpdHI8u4LsUGzmFzKcl_f1_T9cJOdEM-NFVtpftp2LHzYKcwMYExmkvilPW_PMPMQ9IP6asH_Q0xPLTz2XE9_f0PEXeRYb4lNloxo4mvdga_pvNinsQ7RFTVMgIFpX-hd6el7r_fPw9MgCFu5jbidRMg/w651-h364/Screen%20Shot%202022-05-15%20at%209.53.09%20AM.png" width="651" /></a></div><p style="font-size: 15px;"><b style="font-family: helvetica;">Daniel 9:24 </b><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;">is interesting in that it seems to give a time frame during which certain things must occur which did actually occur. </span></p><p style="font-size: 15px;"></p><p style="font-size: 15px;"></p><p></p><p></p><ol style="text-align: left;"><li><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><b>To finish the transgression and make an end to sins.</b> "The transgression" is Adam's sin, as in bring the sin of man to an end, also ending sacrifices for sins.</span></li><li><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><b>To make reconciliation for iniquity and bring in everlasting righteousness</b>. This would be accomplished by the crucifixion of Jesus and subsequent resurrection. </span></li><li><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><b>To seal up the vision and prophesy.</b><span> </span>Meaning the words of Daniel are already fulfilled.</span></li><li><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><b>To anoint the most Holy. </b><span> </span>This does not mean the temple, but Jesus himself. Being anointed in life and in death by John for his ministry and by the women who anointed his body.</span></li></ol><p style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><b>Daniel 12:1</b> most likely refers to the edict of Herod (Rachel’s Lamentation) to kill all the newborn children in Judea, and the soon coming of Christ the Deliverer.</span></p><p style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><b>(Daniel 12:2)</b> refers to the many resurrections that happened in Jerusalem when He, Jesus Christ, was crucified. <b>(Matthew 27:50-54)</b>.</span></p><p style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><b>(Daniel 9:24)</b> speaks of 70 weeks. This is typically interpreted as "weeks of years" referring to the destruction of the Temple by Titus in AD 70.</span></p><p style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><br /></span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;"><b>(Daniel 9:26-27)</b> speaks of the cutting off of the Messiah (crucifixion, end of the earthly ministry) and how subsequently Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed. It was in fact destroyed by the Romans and their "prince" (note Titus was the SON of Emperor Vespasian at the time, thus a "prince") and thus the final ending of potential jewish sacrifices and temple worship was complete.<br /><br />A pagan Roman temple was set up on the former site of Herod's Temple.<br /></span></p><p style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: helvetica;">Today, we see the Al-Aqsa mosque in its place atop the "Dome of the Rock"<br /><br />It is time to "<span style="font-size: medium;">seal up the vision and prophesy" of Daniel.</span><br /></span><br /></p></div>Unknownnoreply@blogger.com